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Does the Prius have a transmission?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by Jeff N, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    usb,
    I am impressed with your knowledge of the Volt!
    You described it well. "A PSD with 3 clutches" allowing 1 or 2 motor EV and parallel or series hybrid modes. This was the next gen of hybrid cars allowing EV driving for trips of 25-50 miles depending on the season/driving style.
    I read there were patent infringement concerns about its series mode, initially, so it was just not discussed.

    To me Engine Running Due To Temperature is the worst thing the Volt does to its engine.
    You can Preheat the Volt while plugged in for a short trip to the store but if the outside temp is <15° F the engine will come on to assist heating the interior even though the interior is totally comfortable using EV heat.
    The engine and the oil never get to a decent operating temp to evaporate moisture.

    I hope Toyota gets it right with their NG PiP. An EREV should be a decent EV first, and save the engine for when it's really needed. Where's the trade off in that? Not using imported oil is a good thing, no?
     
  2. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    All of which is totally irrelevant to the definition of EREV in the SAE paper.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The definition is irrelevant too.

    End results are what matter.
     
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I'm still interested in seeing John's answer to those two questions.
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Read the blogs, written for the very purpose of not having to bring up again without any benefit.

    The "transmission" debates have repeated many times over the years. Each ended the same way.

    For some perspective, consider how Volt measures up as an EREV to compared to the BMW i3.
     
  6. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    You asserted that the definition of EREV somehow changed after the initial Volt rollout. I asked how it changed and what the new definition is.

    If I understand you correctly, your answer isn't that GM's definition changed but rather that the definition of EREV is whatever a bunch of commenters on automotive articles and auto forum site posters say it means for the purpose of winning their debates.

    These are largely the same folks that think the Volt is almost always operating in series mode when the gas engine is running except under rare conditions at speeds over 70 mph. These people are confused.

    Both cars identically fit GM's proposed EREV definition.

    Both cars do not start their range extenders based on speed or torque demand. Both cars start off in EV mode when there is usable grid charge left in the battery. Both cars are highway capable by way of the CARB definition when running on battery charge.
     
  7. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    So John,

    How do you envision the next gen of the PiP?

    Does burning gas and performing required engine maintenance fit your needs perfectly, as in this gen PiP?
     
  8. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    My understanding is Volt only connects the engine to the wheels under very high power demand, like climbing a mountain. (The alternative being not enough electric power to climb.)

    I'm not sure why the engine runs to "burn off fuel" every 2000 miles or so. Maybe it's a kind of diagnostic to make sure the engine still starts (versus waiting til the battery is empty & not starting).
     
  9. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    You are confused.

    First, the Volt is an EREV (like the BMW i3) so the gas engine never comes on just because you are climbing a mountain road at high speed and under high power demand. I assume you know this already but I'm repeating it just to be clear for readers.

    When the gas engine does start after the usable battery capacity runs empty the Volt operates as a full hybrid with a 0.5 - 1.0 kWh hybrid battery buffer. The gas engine can cycle off if the battery has been recharged enough to drive on electricity temporarily. When the gas engine is running, the Volt can operate either in series mode with the engine only driving a generator to make electricity or it can be in power-split mode where the engine is mechanically clutched to the ring gear of the transaxle where it contributes to driving the wheels.

    Anyway, your intuition is completely backwards and this is a common misunderstanding. Under high power (torque demand) as in climbing a mountain or accelerating as quickly as possible the Volt operates in (and will revert to) series mode. It will prefer to use the 150 HP large motor with power coming from the 111 kW capable battery pack and the 55 kW capable gas engine through the generator. On the other hand, the power-split mode happens at lower torque demand and is far more common than series mode in most expressway or highway driving.

    The power-split coupling to the planetary ring gear happens frequently and makes a significant contribution to the efficiency of the Volt. It happens more than half the time while the Volt is running through the 2 EPA highway test cycles, for example.

    It is coupled like that most of time the gas engine is running at speeds above 36-40 mph with low torque demand (when you aren't accelerating strongly and are maintaining speed on flattish roads).

    Specifically, under the US06 EPA highway test cycle, the Volt spends 58% with the gas engine mechanically connected, 16% in series mode with gas engine, 21% with engine off and using one electric motor, and 5% with engine off and using the two electric motors combined.

    US06 includes a bunch of starts and stops at the beginning and end of the test cycle which accounts for the time spent without the gas engine mechanically connected. The older, less aggressive, and freer-flowing HWFET highway cycle almost certainly spends even more time with the gas engine coupled although I haven't seen the numbers.

    So, again, series mode is used for speeds under 36 or so mph and during high torque demand. Power split mode is used the rest of the time the gas engine is running because it is more efficient at speeds above 35-40 mph.

    The Volt has an engine maintenance mode which ensures that the engine is started and brought up to its full operating temperature at least once every 6 weeks regardless of miles driven. This keeps the engine lubricated and burns off any moisture condensation which may have built up.

    Separately, the Volt has a fuel maintenance mode which ensures that the average age of the gasoline in the tank is less than 12 months. If needed, it will force the Volt to burn gas in hybrid mode until you put in enough fresh gas.
     
  10. 70AARCUDA

    70AARCUDA Active Member

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    Does NOT sound very economical to me. Just my observation, of course.
     
  11. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    The Volt's fuel maintenance mode is for extreme outliers to prevent them from getting stale gas that won't burn well or gunks up their fuel lines. Almost nobody runs into fuel maintenance. It's a cause for bragging rights for the very few owners who run into it.

    If you drove an average 12,000 miles a year and you kept a half-tank (4.6 gallons) of gasoline in the car you would have to average at least 2,600 mpg during the entire year in order to have any gasoline remaining that would be considered stale.
     
  12. 70AARCUDA

    70AARCUDA Active Member

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    "A PSD with 3 clutches" as a picture (source: GM):
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Duplicate post
     
  14. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Please reread what I wrote: The Volt engine only connects to the wheels under high demand situations like mountain-climbing (or very very high speeds). The engine does Not connect to the wheels for causual highway cruising..... it runs but it does not tie to the wheels.

    There is a GM video on YouTube which explains this. I think this is it..... I can't watch it from my phone but it appears the same as what I watched on my desktop.
     
  15. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    That's a common misunderstanding due to poor initial media reporting which then was cited by Wikipedia which was then used as background source material for newer media reports...

    Please reread what I wrote earlier.

    The data I quoted about how often the engine has a mechanical path to the wheels (power-split mode) during the EPA highway test cycle US06 is from an SAE paper written by the GM engineers that designed the Volt transmission.

    They found that power-split mode with the gas engine running was taking 58% of the total vs. 16% for series mode. In other words, power-split was 3.6 times as likely as series mode when driving down the highway using that test.

    The data is from:
    The GM “Voltec” 4ET50 Multi-Mode Electric Transaxle

    You can see a summary of the paper and some selected graphs at the link below but note that the speeds are in metric:

    Transmission thread at GM-Volt.com

    The GM video you linked to does not show what you think it shows. It merely shows the different clutching modes and uses an example speed of 70 mph for switching from series to power-split mode. They never said 70 mph was a magic speed at which power-split is enabled but some people have assumed that it was. I'm not saying anything that conflicts with the video.

    The flaw in the video is that it is unclear that power-split with the gas engine connected to the generator and ring gear is common at much lower speeds than 70 mph. It also does not describe what happens if you are cruising on the highway in power-split mode at 60 mph and stomp on the accelerator to pass a slower vehicle. Modest acceleration or hill climbing such as the overpass example in the video will stay in power-split but stomping on the accelerator will generally cause the Volt to revert from power-split back to series mode -- which is the opposite of what you said.
     
  16. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Sorry but I am inclined to believe the official GM video linked above, rather than some unknown guy on the net.

    (Besides if the engine does connect to wheels at low demand situations, then the Volt is not really an EV that you can drive daily w/o gasoline burned.)
     
  17. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    What about the graphs from the SAE technical report written by GM engineers I linked to on the GM-Volt.com thread?

    The fact that the Volt frequently operates on power-split mode when the gas engine is running has nothing at all to do with the Volts behavior as an EV when the battery still has usable charge left. When there is usable charge the gas engine will never run due to speed or power requirements.
     
  18. 70AARCUDA

    70AARCUDA Active Member

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    Problem is that unless you're an SAE member (I was), that article is not available to the general public.
     
  19. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    It's available for $22 or so online but you would have to be really interested to pay that much.

    But you've read it! Did I misrepresent anything in my summary of the paper?

    The relevant graphs from the paper are freely viewable at the GM-Volt.com link I posted earlier and they alone clearly show power-split mode being used at lower torque demand levels when the gas engine is running at speeds as low as 36 mph (around 60 kph on the graph in metric).

    Here's the link again:

    SAE Volt Transaxle Graphs at GM-Volt.com
     
  20. 70AARCUDA

    70AARCUDA Active Member

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    "was" - a past-tense verb. I was an SAE member, but not now that I'm retired.

    I saw and read that GM-Volt.com link earlier when I was chasing info about the Volt's initial introduction.