Arguments for superiority of hybrids

I don't buy it.

 

"And that is why you fail padawan." - Yoda
The EPA rated the 2000 Insight 70 mpg when it was first released so why is it so difficult to believe that hypermilers could get a mere 30% better than that official rating? Hypermilers are ALWAYS scoring significantly better than EPA. Just a few months ago Wayne Gerdes scored 65 in a Hyundai ... +40% higher than the EPA figure

 

The EPA mpg scale changed in the mid-1980s, and again in 2008. It is deceptive to make EPA-based comparisons across these scale changes without making corresponding adjustments.

 

The adjusted EPA for the 2000 Insight is still a high 61, and Insightcentral.net had owners reporting Life MPGs in the 90s. It isn't difficult to get a high number with efficient driving...... heck, Wayne Gerdes & some other hypermilers got over 100 mpg in a plain-old Prius G2. (You probably think they are lying too.) LINK: This Guy Can Get 59 MPG in a Plain Old Accord. Beat That, Punk. | Mother Jones

"the hypermilers set themselves apart in an event they refer to as the Prius Marathon, which took place in Pittsburgh in August 2005. It was undertaken by five men: Wayne; Dan Kroushl, an electrical engineer from Wexford, Pennsylvania; Dave Bassage, a West Virginian who until recently worked for the Department of Environmental Protection; Rick Reece, a geospatial analyst from South Carolina; and Bob Barlow, a Virginia attorney. They had all met online."

 

Then how come Car and Driver has put the Honda Accord on their 10 Best list for something like 28 different years? And btw, it's on their 10 best this year also.

Does the Accord Sport 4 cyl CVT / 6MT have g-suit acceleration, and that cornering ability you refer to?

Obviously not. Does a 2.0 or 2.5L Mazda3 have it? No, but it's on the list also.

 

I used some hyperbole in my previous argument and you called me out on it. Fair enough. Nonetheless, the types that inhabit these magazines have different expectations than the average driver. You can even see that in the way that they drive it in their tests where they have generally gotten mileage in the low thirties (caveat: this is limited to the reviews I have seen - only two) indicating that they are driving the car hard, much much harder than the average Prius user. Under those circumstances, they will likely think the car is a pig - especially in comparison to Hondas which, in my opinion, are fantastic handling cars (no experience with Mazda). The Prius was not designed with that sort of driving in mind. It can do it, but not with the agility that you feel in other cars running with an Otto cycle engine. I still stand by the basic center of the argument.

 

Actually it's 4% this year (for all hybrids and electrics). One out of every 62 new cars sold in the U.S. is a Prius (including the V, C, and plug-in).

You're not going to convince everybody, to be sure, but that's not shabby, and it's been slowly but consistently rising since 2004.

December 2013: Not quite time to panic yet

 

Driving to work in a bit of a hurry this Tuesday, while coming up on a fast turn onto freeway onramp, the Prius once again reminded how odd its handling is. It gives and 'unnerving' feeling a little bit like it's not going to make the turn, but ultimately it does. I guess the driving pros would say the 'turn in' on the car feels wrong for some reason.

 

^^^....gotta get me one of those self-driving cars...I am curious if they take the turns as fast as I do

 

In addition to the points stated above that make hybrids "superior" to conventional cars you can add:

1. No complicated automatic/CVT/manual transmission to break or have to change fluid in - the eCVT (not like a regular CVT at all) is an elegantly simple design
2. Silence at stop lights with the ICE off
3. Silence much of the time in city driving because the ICE is off
4. Perfectly smooth acceleration with no transmission shifts
5. Smooth sounding acceleration with no changes in engine loudness from RPM increasing & decreasing as the transmission shifts
6. Perfectly smooth braking with the Generator doing most of the work until the brake pads kick in at low speeds (compared to brake pads on conventional cars where the stopping power at the same level of pedal pressure changes over the life of the pads)

The 12 points above apply to both the Toyota hybrids & also the newest Ford hybrids (the only full hybrids for the mass market). And the new Honda Accord Hybrid too I suppose.

The Ford system isn't unproven, it is very similar in design to the Toyota system, just Ford's take on it. Ford has had similarly low instances of powertrain failure, much like Toyota's low failure rate for their HSD system.

The Ford hybrids add the additional benefits of:

1. ICE runs less than 50% of the time greatly reducing ICE wear & tear even more than in the Toyota hybrids
2. More efficient engine warm-up strategy leads to superior MPGs on short trips than in the Prius or other Toyota hybrids

 

I calculate the Prius can have one of the lowest total costs of owner ship (TCO) if you fall in the category of 20,000 miles per year, and you play the buy/sell game correctly. Buy a 2 or 3 yr old Gen III Prius (2nd production year model, a 2011 model year) privately on Craigslist with about 30,000 to 50,000 miles (Base Model II), drive 20,000+ miles per year, and sell it after 2 years with about 70,000 miles on the clock. Bid $1000 less than the private seller's asking price, specifying you have cash in hand. If you have a number of suitable candidates, it is likely one of the sellers will call you back. Avoid Prius with rebuilt title, and avoid seemingly private sellers that are really dealers. Get one with recently replaced tires. Test drive and immediately dismiss if not perfect mechanically, minor cosmetic blemishes aside. A Prius holds its value very well, that is depreciates pretty slowly from 2 to 4 years, or 3 to 5 years. Then when it's time to sell, adjust you sale timing to coincide when there is a run up in gas prices. Sell privately on Craigslist. Then, buy your next newer Prius on Craigslist. Rinse and repeat.

The theoretical TCO data many people quote, are usually are talking about depreciation from new. Don't buy any car new if you are serious about saving money. Using the strategy above, you will save more driving a Prius than almost any other car because, you will save $2500 in gas, only big maintenance item will really be oil changes, no brakes costs if you drive it properly, low likelihood of major repairs, no tire costs (because just replaced before purchasing) should still be good enough after 40,000 miles, pretty low insurance rates, and you may well be able to sell it for only $3000 less than you bought it for. Is there any 3 year old car that beat this TCO with this level of reliability? I bought a Prius for economic reasons not a Safe the Polar Bear environment cause that some have Not Evil Just Wrong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Buy every two years? That's ALOt in tax!

 

Will a Really Happy, ACLU-member, left-leaning Independent do?

 

gas mileage. it honestly cannot be compared with any other car on the market- at least not in the price range.

 

lets take a look at the camry.
taken from my local dealership

normal ICE $30,000 city 25 hi 35
New 2014 Toyota Camry XLE (2014.5) For Sale in Arlington, VA | Vin: 4T4BF1FK1ER384197

Hybrid $35,000 city 40 hi 38
New 2014 Toyota Camry Hybrid XLE For Sale in Arlington, VA | Vin: 4T1BD1FK4EU105969

so I'd be spending $5k more for a hybrid, with everthing esle being equal. Yes I'd be saving fuel... but just in fuel saving.... the payoff of the $5k is 1428 gallons @ $3.50. Lets only consider city since the high way difference is negligible using that $5k I saved in buying the camry ICE can go 37000 miles. or three years of driving. that same amount of driving in the hybrid is going to cost me $3200

base don this. it will take 6 years of owning the hybrid to break even with the same mileage as the ICE camry. and this doesn't take into account if you finance the car...

when I got my prius to replace my wrecked HHR I knew i was paying a premium for the hybrid but being the car was used and the mpg difference was huge the payoff is much sooner for me.


you'd have to really "love" the environment, which many people do, to truly justify spending the extra $$$ on a hybrid. In some locations hybrids give you privilege like parking, HOV ect. and that can also be a reason for the buy in...

I am not a hybrid hater, but if i was walking into a dealership, there is no way that you could convince me to by a camry hybrid over the camry ICE...if i was in the market for a camry. $5,000 is a lot of scratch...

Trying to convince some one that a hybrid is superior is hard. especially if they start crunching numbers and how long the break even point is...

 

You failed to account for the reduced maintenance costs with a hybrid. In the ICE Camry you would be replacing the brakes much more often than the hybrid. The hybrid is also a superior driving experience.

Are you sure that there are no feature differences between the two cars you listed?

 

Saying this vehicle or that is superior is based on how one defines superior, which IS subjective when talking personal cars.

 

bear

so lets add 500 bucks for a dealer break job. you should be able to get 3 years out of a set brakes, provided you are not mario andretti. I would imagine that both cars have the same oil change interval and other similar mechanical costs, oil, coolant, ect.

both cars have the same package XLE the ICE is a 2014.5 (4clyl, not the six) and hybrid is 2014...and I've never driven either car, so I can't comment on the "driving experience" of one vs the other... and I used MSRP everything else being equal.

I can't imagine the "driving experience" of of two identically equipped cars (tires, suspension, seating, ect) with the exception of the power plant to be that different. being that the hybrid has 20 more ponies will make for better get up and go, but not sure I could justify $5000...

 

Personally, I just can't stand it when a car doesn't shut off the ICE at a stoplight anymore. To me, that is unacceptable and I would pay the "hybrid premium" for that option. As far as taking 37k miles to "break even", that's not really that many miles (less than two years for some people).

As Frodoz737 says, it is about personal preferences and personal definitions. To some, a high perf car is a Porsche that can go from 0-60 in 4 seconds. To me, high perf means a 4 door family car that can get 40+ mpg in the city while carrying all my groceries and family. The Camry Hybrid and the Prius both exceed my criteria for a performance vehicle. The Porsche 0-60 four second guy/gal will hate the Prius or the TCH.

 

USN. i agree, don't buy a Porsche to haul lumber, don't buy a truck to go 0-60 in 3 seconds...

don't buy a hybrid to haul 5 people and two St bernards on a dialy basis

do buy a hybrid to save gas. keeping in mind that you will generally pay more for the hybrid upfront than a similar ICE only car that is similarly equipped. which is what i was trying to show with my camry example...
from motor trend..

5 years cost of ownership for a 2013 camry ICE $31430

2013 Toyota Camry XLE Sedan Cost Of Ownership - 2013 Toyota Camry XLE Insurance, Maintenance & Repair Costs - Motor Trend Magazine


same thing for a 2013 hybrid $32131

2013 Toyota Camry XLE Hybrid Sedan Cost Of Ownership - 2013 Toyota Camry XLE Hybrid Insurance, Maintenance & Repair Costs - Motor Trend Magazine


so based on motor trend they are about equal after 5 years... with the biggets difference being depreciation, fuel and finance...

So i wasn't far off on my estimate of a 6 year break even...

Pay now(hybrid) or pay later(ice).....but if you only plan on short term ownership...stick with the ice...

I think once someone has purchased a hybrid, they will continue to buy them.. Its just hard for some folks to get on the horse for the first time...

 

What about people who don't trade-in cars? They'll only get 500 dollars from the junkyard (yes even for a Prius).

Brake fluid in a Prius needs replaced same as any other car..... ~150 every three years. You save some on pads but not enough to make-up $7000 difference between a Prius and a nonhybrid Focus hatch.