PiP vs Ford Fusion Energi Plug-in?

This might be a start: Compare Side-by-Side

 

That's a reasonable question with a stirring answer.

In the past, there was a tremendous amount of chest-pounding. Enthusiasts of Volt declared it "vastly superior" and celebrated GM having "leap frogged" the competition. Then reality set in. Although Volt was an appealing vehicle and did indeed achieve some notable engineering milestones, it did not meet business or consumer need. That's what caused so much attention to be drawn to it, pushing out pretty much all other mentions... except Prius.

Since then, GM itself has officially declared this generation and moved on. They acknowledged goals not having been met. That chapter ended. Many people aren't aware of the detail of that history. And as much as some still want to discuss it, I have no interest. I too would like to hear more about the other offerings, especially both Ford choices. C-Max is what we've seen a number of former Volt drivers switch to when their lease expired. Fusion isn't as practical, but it offers ample seating room.

Battery-Capacity is the obvious Energi advantage over Prius PHV. That increased kWh provides higher kW draw opportunity, translating to more electric-only power. Depleted efficiency isn't as good though, especially with C-Max. Of course, comparisons are limited to the current situation.

We know that Toyota would like to increase capacity as cost drops, keeping it competitive with the real competition: traditional vehicles. Knowing the engine in Prius will become even more efficient, it will continue to retain its hybrid advantage too. Ford's direction isn't as obvious. Capacity is already at a "maxed" threshold, with respect to both cost and physical space. We haven't heard anything about engine efficiency either. In fact, the MPG down-rating has really soured C-Max expectations.

Fusion, as a hybrid, is rather competitive already. It rates notably higher than Camry, and matches Accord for combined. Fusion, as a plug-in, has a tiny trunk. Being that limited for cargo space will deter buyers. Being practical has been a strong selling-point for Prius, including the plug-in model.

Like it or not, we're still in the early stages. Things will get interesting as tax-credit expiration nears. In the meantime, charging-stations are evolving. There are more locations and the equipment itself is improving considerably.

The next few years are going to be exciting.

 

plus, fusion is in the camry accord segment, size wise.

 

Energi has the same power-split system as PiP. It has bigger battery and also cycle it deeper. The battery modules are made by the same manufacturer.

Energi is capable of higher EV speed (85mph) with the expense of lower ICE direct mechanical power split to the wheels. Therefore, Ford plugin model gets lower gas mileage than the hybrid version.

Cargo space is given up also. However, it qualifies for higher tax credit due to the size of the battery. As I like to point out, the tax credit has nothing to do with the effectiveness (rather ineffectiveness) of the battery, just the raw kWh capacity.

Because more electricity would be used to push air at higher speed, EV highway efficiency would be lower. Also the weight penalty would drag down the EV city efficiency.

A gallon of gas has 33.7 kWh equivalent energy. The difference between 43 MPG and 50 MPG is about 4.7 kWh. PiP takes about 3 kWh for a full charge. This means the gas efficiency gained by PiP is significant.

Another way to look at it is from the recharge time. Because PiP gained efficiency from the gas engine, it has to spend less time recharging the battery to achieve the same MPGe rating or carbon footprint.

 

We have both the PiP (2012) and the Fusion Energi (2013). See our write-up and discussion (Son and I) in the thread "have Prius, bought Ford Fusion Energi". Enjoy.

 

I wish the PIP had a higher top EV speed. The ICE kicks in at 100 kph, which is annoying when the speed limit is 110. I prefer to get as much as I can out of EV before it goes to HV.

 

Personally, I don't care for the tradeoffs.

I take advantage of the cargo area in Prius on a regular basis, but that's not the biggest return. It's the MPG when not drawing from the plug-supplied electricity. Also, you consume the entire capacity quickly when driving at high speeds for more than just a little bit.

Here's my distribution for last year... And don't forget, I live in Minnesota.



Prius strives to be green under all conditions.

Ford isn't actually as green overall. That choice of deeper cycling is a head-scratcher with respect to longevity too.

 

One thing I'd like to know more about with Energi is the blending.

For Prius, we call it EV-BOOST when the EV speed threshold is exceed. The engine starts then, but continues a high draw from the battery-pack. The result is MPG over 100. That's a "best of both worlds" approach for efficiency.

 

At first, I assumed it would blend due to the power-split architecture. However, I doubt it blends for a number of reasons.

1) ICE displacement is higher (2.0 vs 1.8). So, minimum power at reasonable BSFC is higher. You want very low power at high efficiency to blend. Ideally, you want to make half the power needed to cruise 65-70 mph.

2) No EGR to further reduce pumping loss. This also raises the min power.

For above two reasons, Energi would take ICE efficiency hit if it tries to blend. I would think Ford's strategy is to avoid blending with higher EV speed and more power from the battery.

What end up happening is, reduced efficiency in EV mode (due to higher speed and power load) and ICE efficiency reduction (due to PSD ratio change to allow higher EV speed). All while the interior space gets reduced and refuel time increased to hours. It is a lose-lose-lose-lose situation, for the sake of getting more EV miles (and qualify for more tax credit). I am not trying to bash Energi. Volt takes this to a much higher level.

I am glad Toyota did what they SHOULD, instead of what they COULD to appear to "leap frog". Science was behind PiP and there are data (well-to-wheel efficiency and emission) to back it up.

My personal first year average was 132 MPGe on electric miles and 56 MPG on gas miles with 44% EV ratio. Toyota got it right when they said to charge more often to increase EV ratio as adding more battery is counterproductive, especially when the standard was set very high (50 MPG with 83% fuel production efficiency). For reference, electricity production (from fossil fuel which makes up 2/3) and transmission is about 30% efficient.

 

This weekend, we had a mini gathering. It was supposed to be an Earth Day event, but the heavy rain left us quite lonely... 6 plug-in vehicles... a Tesla, a Leaf, 3 Volt, and my Prius PHV. So, we hung out and talked for awhile.

The topic of "sales pitch" eventually came up. We all recognize that you've got 20 seconds at most to say you piece. After that, you typically lose the person to misconceptions & assumptions. That makes subjects like "blending" nearly impossible to address. There isn't an awareness of tradeoffs.

In this case, the belief is more electricity is better. How do you illustrate to them that higher overall efficiency is possible from allowing the engine to run when the mindset is to use no gas until you run out of electricity? To make matters worse, they think when the engine runs the battery is no longer used. Then, there's the reality that much of our electricity is derived from dirty sources.

Conveying so much information is just a brief few sentences is basically pointless. We were in agreement that the best way to convince the poorly informed is to encourage firsthand research. After all, it was the test-drive experience that won over countless doubters years ago. Why not with plug-in vehicles now?

 

I think it will be the fuel economy that wins over most people to a hybrid, at least in this area, the oil capital of Canada. I happen to think that while a minor portion of the electricity is from green sources like wind, and the majority is produced by burning fossil fuels, it's still cleaner than burning the stuff that comes out of the tailpipe. A hybrid also does a lot to remove some of the pollution from urban areas as well.

With regard to Ford drawing down the hybrid battery to a lower level, thus shortening it's longevity, I ask which automaker has the better reputation for making reliable vehicles, Ford or Toyota?

 

The lithium ion batteries in the plug ins should have a greater usable SOC range than the NiMH in the hybrid Prius. As it is, GM is the most conservative in terms of battery buffer.

As to a short answer the OP's question, there isn't much difference between the Energis and PPI in operational and technical sense. The Fords have a larger battery than allows for longer EV range, and a higher speed and power threshold before the ICE starts.

The Ford and Toyota hybrid systems are very similar to begin with. There was a reason for patent agreement between to two when Ford released the Escape hybrid. I'd say the differences are more about just being different enough to not step on each others' toes at this point than have any meaningful difference in operation. The PHV versions vary a bit more than that. The PPI is essentially the hybrid Prius with a bigger battery and a charge port. The only thing given up on it is the spare tire.

The Energi's on the other hand went for more EV performance. Which means an even larger battery with a different gear ratio than the hybrid for the higher electric speeds. This means sacrificing cargo space and gasoline fuel economy. In exchange they get two to three times more electric range than a PPI with less chance of the ICE starting up when the car is 'pushed'. They might even be more efficient in EV mode than the PPI. Remember, the PPI has 6 miles of all electric range, and used some gasoline to go the 11 miles on the EPA test.

If cargo space is a priority, none are going to beat the PPI. The C-max Energi is the next best with 3cu.ft. less, closely followed by the Volt, and the Fusion Energi is just . If EV range and/or comfort is more important, the Energi's have more spacious cabins to go with the increased range. Those are the important differences. As for the technological ones, they are as distinct as the differences between a Ford and Toyota automatic transmission.

 

You are downplaying the significance of PiP EV efficiency and capabilities.

Check out Rob's post (below) for EV efficiency of PiP in UDDS and HWFE (less aggressive pre-2008).

http://priuschat.com/threads/my-pip-after-one-year-stats.133697/page-4#post-1984087

PiP got 189 MPGe city and 174 MPGe highway. That's if you don't drive aggressively. In the same cycles, Volt got 129 MPGe city and 120 MPGe highway. Midsize vs compact, what a difference but in reverse!

Energi was not tested as no data is available. The numbers should be around Volt because the Monroney label is 100 Energi vs 98 Volt.

UDDS


HWFE


If driven more aggressively, PiP will use the 50 MPG gas engine so numbers will not be comparable anymore.

 

Double post.

 

We see that all the time.

Rather than stating actual kWh capacity, it's always a reference to that highly misleading EPA measure.

Same goes with speed, there's never any mention of the benefit blending gets at high speed.

 

If driven in UDDS cycle, PiP would get 15.5 EV miles and 14.1 miles in HWFE. If you live in an urban city (like me), these are ideal driving speed for EV.

If you are in Texas where things are far apart and speed limit is 75 mph, PiP can blend electricity to the class leading 50 MPG gas engine.

If you want EV purity at high speed, be prepare to take efficiency and interior space hit and double (vs Energi) or quadruple (Volt) in refueling time.

It really depends on your priority. My PiP is the single car in my family.

 

I don't see how I am when all I said in regards to EV efficiency is that the Energis might be more efficient since they do have a higher mpge number, but I should have considered the gas mpg.

As to the other EV capability of range, the PPI's EPA sticker gives it an EV range of 11 miles and an AER of 6 miles. These are generated by the same test procedure as the Energis' 21 mile EV range. Saying 2 to 3 times isn't downplaying.

How do you figure? On the Argonne test, which is slightly different than the EPA's, the PPI started burning gas on the second repetition of the city test cycle. Two cycles is just short of 15 miles. Same with the highway tests.
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/D3/data/2013_toyota_prius/D3_Master_Summary_List_2013_Toyota_Prius_PHV_72F.jpg

And this is overplaying the significance of a quick charge time. The majority of charging for these PHVs will be done at home. Possibly at work. Only the Volt is pushing it in terms of a complete charge with the 10hrs at 120V. Many would likely get by fine for it though off a regular outlet even then. The reason for a level 2 charger is to allow preconditioning of the car.

That might be another difference between the Energis and PPI. I know the PPI can't preheat the cabin from the wall outlet, but can the Fords?

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As to the Energis and blending, why wouldn't they see a boost to mpgs with wall charge? It is basic hybrid operation. Higher available SOC of the battery, the more likely the car will lean on it. This might put the engine in a less ideal spot in terms of efficiency, but that only becomes an issue if using battery charge would result in a lower overall vehicle efficiency.

Considering the higher top EV speed means most of the blending with an Energi happens from heavy acceleration, blending in electric is better than just guzzling fuel that happens with the ICE on its own.

 

Exclusion of vital information is misleading, period.

 

Today's travel... mostly highway, in really wet snow, blah ...was 96 miles total. I recharged early in the morning, mid-afternoon, and squeezed in a partial (60%) late in the evening. The result was 62 MPG.

Blending is the new "caught off guard" situation. People look back and give Toyota credit for being way ahead of the rest of the industry for hybrids, implying the other automakers are now rapidly catching up. They believe the race is over, that a lead no longer exists. Big mistake.

People assume the next big step forward is just increasing battery-capacity for further EV driving. That's an easy trap to fall into. It makes sense... unless you really take the time to consider all the factors involved. Sadly, few ever do. Most are greenwashed into thinking more is always better.

Engineers know differently. They see how complicated it is to achieve a balance, how challenging it is to deliver an optimal solution. They are well aware of tradeoffs. They understand higher capacity and more power may not actually be an improvement.

It will take years for the typical consumer to figure that out. Then, they'll look back and wonder way the others didn't just follow the same path Toyota took. It will seem so obvious to them, at that point. But right now, there's lots of disbelief that blending is better.