Traded in the PIP for a new 2014 Volt...

Efficiency drops above 62 mph is for all vehicles, not just PiP EV mode. That's the fact of aerodynamic you can't avoid. Toyota chose to switch fuel above that speed, whereas GM chose to switch gear and stay in EV. Different design goals with different outcomes.

Below 62 mph, PiP is still more efficient (174 MPGe vs 120 MPGe) than Volt in EV mode under EPA Highway Fuel Economy (HWFE) cycle. See Rob's post.

My PiP - After One Year (Stats) | Page 4 | PriusChat

Above 62 mph, PiP was designed to take advantage of the 50 MPG gas engine and the superior refuel speed of gasoline. "Division of labor" boosted efficiency of both.

The range loss ny_rob referred to was caused mostly by the increase in aerodrag. 15% loss due to motor friction maybe at the top 100mph speed. At that speed, the loss due to aerodrag could be 300%. I believe Volt owner manual also has a caution note about range reduction above the speed of 60 mph.

It is also the reason PiP does not use pure battery above 62 mph -- and keep the car light, spacious, maintain gas efficiency and cost under control.

Similar"trick" was used in HSD as well. For HSD, MG1 spins in reverse direction to lower gas engine rpm for more efficient operation. Gas engine also idle at 1,000 rpm to bring down MG1 rpm.

PiP motors are not oversized so, there is no need to worry about low power operation inefficiency. Nor does it need to worry about insufficient power at very high speed because it runs in union with the gas engine in hybrid or EV boosted blended mode.

I understand for those with longer commute that needs to drive at high speed in pure EV mode, Volt is suitable because it was engineered for that purpose with trade-offs.

 

I want to drive as close as possible to 100% electric without range anxiety. And I'm tired of paying attention to the list of conditions that turn the PiP's ICE on, including exceeding 62 mph.

For those who want to drive as energy efficiently as possible, the PiP is a better choice.

 

bilofsky, did you use to have a Prius?

Do you drive your volt like you did the Prius? And how much EV range are you estimating or Full Charge Full Tank distance? Just curious?

 

Notice how rare comments like that have become? In fact, the only remaining source is from those who purchased a plug-in hybrid but really wanted an EV. It made sense.

Years ago, with so little information available, people made lots of assumptions. That spread misconceptions and contributed to greenwashing. Now, people are seeing the variety of offerings available and are researching the differences.

That's why asking for goals is so important. There are tradeoffs. Not understanding the differences anymore, well into 2014, is the purchasers loss. The design & approach of each automaker is clear at this point.

Change will come. Selling at a loss and depending upon tax-credits can only be short-term and at low-volume. In the meantime, gas prices continue to drop and pressure from traditional vehicles grows. Most people won't care when the engine starts. They'll just want something affordable, practical, reliable, efficient, and clean.

 

Good question. No, but I had driven several and liked the car.

I had two Toyotas, then bought another, fuel-inefficient but otherwise fun car. I'd been promising myself that when Toyota came out with a plug-in, I'd buy one right away. So I did.

The PiP feels like it was designed to be as much like a regular Prius as possible.

A poll on the Volt forum asked about the car it replaced. 12.9% replaced a Chevrolet and 18.2% replaced a Toyota. I didn't see a poll on this forum so I might start one.

Not at all. I drove the PiP very conscious of the remaining EV range and how far I was going. I was careful not to mash the accelerator for fear of turning on the ICE.

The Volt? I Just Drive It.

When I got the Volt it was estimating 37 miles range. Now it's up to 45 miles.

The one time I was worried about range, I drove it very PiPishly and estimate I could have gotten over 50 miles had I not found a charging station at the destination.

I started a thread on the Volt forum comparing the two vehicles. I think the PiP is a better car but the Volt is a much better EV.

 

"Just Drive It" is the motto from Prius, coined long ago and adopted by others. That's what I do in my PiP on the daily commute. The engine shuts off surprisingly quick afterward in the summer months.

The appeal of more power & range is quite normal for enthusiasts. Jumping on the opportunity to get that is a nice choice, for that audience. The masses don't hold that as high of a priority though. It's a bitter pill to swallow, a harsh reality. So, don't expect mainstream acceptance. People are still going to flock to small guzzlers instead.

You can enjoy your purchase. It will serve as an endorsement in the growing market for plug-in vehicle too. That kind of contribution is always appreciated. Thanks.

Watching how quickly EV miles melt away at faster speeds is an interesting situation. I find it rewarding to watch the engine run at an extremely low RPM by taking advantage of electricity by blending. It's efficient and the supply lasts longer.

At 70 mph, you're going to use up the Volt supply in roughly 15 minutes, when you take into account the return trip and the off highway driving to reach your destination. Heck, for the sake of argument, draw that out to 20 minutes. Range looks mighty limited from that perspective.

Introduction of the HOLD button made avoiding that high consumption-rate from EV possible. But then you are depending upon a system that isn't much better than a traditional vehicle. Don't shoot the messenger. The 1.4 turbo Cruze delivers 38 MPG highway. For Volt, it's 40 MPG. That's a tough sell.

 

That hasn't been my experience.

Most of my non-EV PiP mileage has been on a 52 mile round trip, most of which is 60 - 70 mph freeway driving, with charging stations at the destination.

So I was pleasantly surprised the first time I had to drive there in the Volt, late for a meeting, with a heavy foot on the pedal, but arrived having burned exactly 26 miles of projected range. In fact, most of my first 400 miles has been at freeway speeds, while the projected range increased from 37 to 45 miles per charge.

 

How many ordinary consumers will have a charging station available at their destination?

 

Complete opposite here. I drove a Leaf before and I found it boring (no offense) because it was 100% electric. You slow down, you gain range. You speed up, you lose range. There was no depth to it.

With PiP, I can use both fuels/propulsions at any instance. I choose which to use and I find it fun due to the control and the depth of "play" I have. It also depends on the length of the trip and later charging opportunities. The game I play is to boost the efficiency of both fuels.

Of course, I can just let PiP manage it by letting it do it's thing automatically but then it may get boring.

You were trying to drive PiP as an EV. Ouch, that must be painful and you were unable to accept it for what it is and Just Drive It. I am glad you now found the suitable car for you.

There is side benefit to it, especially in the winter. That is the waste heat from the gas engine. It is used to warm up the cabin so the electricity is only for propulsion.

Electricity has no waste heat since that was left back at the power plant. PiP setup/design is great. I am glad Toyota stood their ground and did what they should (reducing emission by increasing efficiency with a balanced design) rather than what they could (add bigger battery to exploit tax credit and greenwash with meaningless big MPG numbers).

Combustion anxiety and the lure of electricity can blind some and lead to EV bias. I have felt both and saw through and overcame them. I know you have and others on PC as well.

Try going 90-100 mph. It should become obvious. You'll get 5 to 10 mins thrill before you run out of juice and for 10 hours recharge with the bundled charger.

That is the reason why PiP EV mode has 62 mph limit and gasoline is used for higher speed because it can be refueled in a few mins.

 

Another interesting stat that I haven't found anywhere is the regeneration efficiency on braking or coasting down a hill.

Anyone have experience with that in their volt?

I remember production of the volt, GM was trying to do something different, or catch up. There was a talk of just a serial connection to the battery, then the fact GM wanted to put in regen breaking before release...

It was interesting and ultimately is better for all of us customers because we have a choice. Our only hybrid before was Toyota. Now whew...we have a ton of choices. Of course hybrids Toyota is still king in efficiency and probably reliability (though a lot argue, not fun).

And with the Plugin Hybrid segment coming, it's still very interesting. Here's to hoping better fuel efficiency KWh per mile for the next PiP.

Electric is a whole other segment that Tesla trying to really chance. I don't think it's there yet. Maybe if Tesla had a power generator for fuel cells as well? Or there was a new battery which you could pour liquid in to charge? Not sure. I like the idea of superchargers, but how much life does it take off the battery? And I'd still have range anxiety with 200 miles versus 299 in a regular car and at least 500 in the summer in a Prius.

bilofsky: still hadn't answer on the longest trip full charge full gas you've taken in the volt? I'm all too curious! I have to travel far to work sometime and there's no plug on the other side. If I had a PiP I could maybe get 50 mpg, a Volt, maybe I'd start off at 60 mpg when I reach work? Then get down to 40? But how many times would I have to fill up.

 

That is interesting, I have never heard of anyone describe the driving experience of an electric drive as "boring".
The instant response from the pedal, 100% torque at 0 rpm, and the typical heavy regen makes it quite the thrill for most.

This is what is going to drive market share of electric drive vehicles beyond the 3-4% hybrids have been stuck at.

 

I don't with my Ampera, but still managed to drive 45.000km in 20 months and my average is 0.58l/100km (=405MPG).

However, even when driving at 99.5% autobahn speeds (130+km/h GPS) through Alps, 400+km in one direction, recharge in 3.5 hours and then back, 3 persons, fully loaded, we did 5.1l/100km (=46MPG).

 

We knew GM was appealing to an enthusiast audience. That's why the "Who is the market for Volt?" question kept getting asked over and over again. The response of great EV acceleration was a dead giveaway that the design wasn't balanced. Tradeoffs were being made to retain that electric purity, but they weren't being acknowledged. So, we asked about heat in the Winter. Response to that made it overwhelming clear that it the sacrifice was a problem being avoided.

The first generation had been demoted to a proof-of-concept and enthusiasts were celebrating the victory. GM choose to call it a niche. Whatever the case, an appealing vehicle had indeed been delivered. It supported the bragging rights owners had hoped for and delivered a nice driving experience. It was what both wanted, not what was actually needed. Ordinary consumers kept purchasing Malibu, Impala, and Cruze instead.

Looking toward the second generation, we see some enthusiasts having become supporters. They now openly address the changes required for Volt to reach a mainstream audience. Rather than being addressed as shortcomings or missed goals, they are instead referred to as upgrades and improvements. That's ok. It's progress. But the delay is really unfortunate. The backlash against Toyota for not having waivered from priorities of the masses is disappointing.

I'm hoping those who have owned both will help us deal with the issues. GM must align priorities to match what the bulk of their customers will actually purchase. The need for profit from selling lots of low-margin vehicles, without any government assistance, is a bitter pill to swallow. Enthusiasts don't like the idea of being common, but it's exactly what's needed. That means having to give up bragging rights and shift focus. It's their choice. Change or be left behind.

 

It seems like the new Cadillac version will be the new "bragging rights" car. Chevy can focus on a more mainstream car with the next Volt. Either that, or make a second model using the plug in tech focused on the regular person and keep the Volt as a performance variant.

 

Some drivers love the feel and control of a manual transmission. Others can't stand fussing with the clutch and gearshift but just enjoy driving.

Similarly, there are two different kinds of drivers here, and we're talking past each other.

Some of us love the way the incredible technology of the PiP produces clean, energy-efficient transportation. Those drivers appreciate the intricacy of the mechanical and computerized choreography that creates the "Just Drive It" experience. But they don't just drive it - they savor the intellectual stimulus of doing their part to optimize it.

Others want to drive an electric car but find all the rest of it a distraction. Those of us who, like me, understand some of what the car is doing find it more of a distraction than a delight.

The world of sustainable transportation is big enough for all of us.

I answered this above as best I could. I've only driven 400 miles so far. I believe I could have gotten over 50 miles out of a full charge the one time I drove PiPishly but recharged after 23 miles with 26 remaining.

But the answer for you depends so much on your individual driving circumstances: the exact distance, hills vs. flat, stoplights, speed, temperature, and on and on. If you describe your normal commute maybe I can give a more helpful reply.

But it won't be in terms of MPG, and we really should stop comparing MPG numbers.

Looking at MPG is one of the reasons I traded the PiP for a Volt.

It's fun to try to get a high number. But if you have to run an errand out of EV range, it'll kill the MPG for that tank of gas. If you have to drive 20 miles one way to work, and the other guy only drives 5, you will never beat his MPG. When I found myself choosing a store based on whether it was in EV range, I knew it was time to quit.

Now, if I had to drive 50 miles one way to work with no charging, it'd be a whole different calculation. The PiP would beat the pants off the Volt. Individual circumstances.

Trying to generalize, the conversation can get silly. For example:

My individual circumstance is that I do. YCMV.

What? Why would I want to go 90-100 mph? The thrill of a speeding ticket?

My Volt charges 45 miles of range in 4 hours using the 3.3kw charger it didn't make sense to buy while I drove the PiP. And the Volt can be refueled at a gas station too.

Look, John and Seawolf, maybe I'm not sophisticated enough to appreciate the euphoria of conducting the symphony orchestra that is the PiP in motion. Maybe I'm just enough of an engineer to be distracted by the intricacy and not enough to appreciate it.

But I'm driving clean. My solar panels are putting renewable electrons into the battery. And I'm enjoying it. So peace on us all, and let's go beat up on the gas guzzlers.

 

Fifty miles one way and only charging at home would be a round-trip of 100 miles. That's more like the point where the Volt and PiP break even rather than the pants being beaten off. It's reasonable to assume that the gas miles are on the highway for 100 miles round-trip so EPA mpg is 49 PiP and 40 for Volt.

PiP: 11 miles EV, 89 miles gasoline
Volt: 38 miles EV, 62 miles gasoline

PiP: 3 kWh, 1.82 gallons gasoline
Volt: 12.25 kWh, 1.55 gallons gasoline

The PiP would still use a bit more gasoline so the Volt would have a higher combined MPG. Both cars would have about 52.25 - 52.5 combined MPGe. Other comparisons like CO2 emissions, and fuel cost would be dependent on the price of gas and electricity and grid fuel mix. And in a year or two things might change and you might be able to charge after 50 miles or lower carbon electricity options might become available.

 

I found a cost break-even point of 80 miles, taking into account premium fuel for the Volt.

I used price assumptions that vary widely with location and will with time, and 11 miles EV for the PiP and 44 for the Volt which is what I get. I might just have a slightly below average battery pack with the PiP and a great one with the Volt.

All this proves that the actual tradeoffs depend on individual circumstances.

And then someone else might factor in purchase price, or prefer not the most cost efficient vehicle, but the most energy efficient, or the least polluting, or the maximum EV miles, or the most fun to drive.

Or the most fun to argue about discuss.

Ain't choice great?

 

Kewl! Is that from empty? What EV range are you showing?

 

"Just Drive It" is just going along with the flow of traffic. What does that mean?

I suggest not ever using a stereotype like "PiPishly" anymore then.

Our goal is to get automakers to deliver something for the mainstream consumers. That means sucking it up and acknowledging the reality that the car must be able to compete at high-volume with low-margins and no subsidies. Right now, Volt is getting crushed by sales of Malibu, Impala, and Cruze.

I'd consider your location near ideal. For those of use who spend many months dealing with sub-freezing temperatures, the difference is much less. Real-World driving shows there isn't a daily pattern either. The needs throughout the week and on weekends can vary quite a bit.