My PiP - After One Year (Stats)

It's certainly a goal that many customers talk about.

If you're asking about GM's goals we could speculate that one goal was to built a car that would demonstrate engineering skill and achieve a very high (91 out of 100) customer satisfaction score for the Volt among Consumer Reports subscribers.

You could also speculate that the Volt allows GM to prove the technology in the field for wider future deployment across other models. As I've said before, they clearly aimed their design at the beginning of a new technology price/performance curve much like early flat screen TVs or like Tesla is doing with the Model S. The expectation being that initial volume with early adopters will drive down component costs in a virtuous cycle over the next few years.

Toyota chose a more conservative path.

The result is more choice for consumers who can pick a car that best reflects their own individual car purchasing requirements.

 

Apologies for my part in helping to continue to pull the thread off topic

FWIW I agree that it's pretty silly the way Volt / Prius / TDI owners bash one another. All are significantly better than average choices, and which is best is largely a matter of personal preference. What's best IMHO is for as many people as possible to choose a higher efficiency vehicle, and that likelihood increases the more diverse the offerings are. As an engineer I greatly enjoy exploring the technical differences of these solutions, but that shouldn't be construed to imply that all of these approaches don't have value as part of a greater goal. For me the goal is a continual move away from non-renewable energy sources toward sustainable sources. For others the goal may be different, but in so far as they produce the same outcomes, I guess those differences aren't that important.

Rob

 

Finding a way to deliver a plug-in without depending upon liquid cooling took quite a bit of effort. Delivering it in on a mainstream platform was risky. What does conservative refer to?

It's a whole lot harder squeezing out more from less.

 

Yes, but in SoCal, with Edison the Tier 3 rate is about $.27/kWh. With that, my cost per mile in EV mode would be around $.07/mi. This compares marginally better to the $.078/mi I'm seeing in HV mode. I wonder how the Volt really pencils out in the "real world" of SoCal, where electricity isn't cheap, not to mention its appetite for dino juice at least 10mpg less than the PiP (where do you get 40+MPG - I've seen 34-37MPG as typical from users) and its having substantially less room for people and cargo.

Those in areas with <$.10/kWh electric power (or those with solar panels that can keep your home in Tier 1 rates) and no nasty tiers like here will fare much better with any EV.

 

My own average monthly EV efficiency in my Volt is about 27 kWh / 100 miles or 3.7 miles per kWh and that is mostly highway miles. So, $.27 per kWh would be about $.073 per mile EV.

My average monthly gas-only hybrid efficiency is about 45 mpg and is also mostly highway miles. I'm guessing premium gas is probably around $4 a gallon in SoCal so that's about $.088 per mile on gasoline.

I drive more efficiently than most people and your numbers likely indicate you drive efficiently also although you didn't state your local gasoline price, HV mpg or your EV MPGe or kWh / 100 miles (including charging overhead).

My numbers are viewable at VoltStats.net but ignore the MPGe since it's based on EPA estimates for EV efficiency since GM/OnStar doesn't allow VoltStats to access my actual kWh charging data -- just my miles driven on EV, HV, and gallons of gasoline consumed.

Volt Stats: Details for Volt #2011-00042 (Jeff N)

 

Waah, how come others get to talk about the differences between a Volt and a PiP? But not me?
You guys are mean.
Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, think I'll go eat worms....

 

It seems you can't do it respectfully and look at the strengths of both cars, not just the Volt. If you can do that, we would love to have you here. If not, we would request you would leave.

 

But, but, I try to see the strengths, I do....

John17 talks about the efforts used in designing the PiP's battery TMS.
What is the TMS used when the PiP is sitting outside in 110°F Phoenix and is charging?
I really don't know.
I know what my '10 Prius IV did for battery TMS when I was driving it.

And I thoroughly understand the eCVT in the Prius. I started a thread on the maintenance of this transaxle.
What does the PiP Owner's Manual say these days for ATF changes? Anything new?
The Volt's transaxle is similar but had 3 clutches for distinctly different modes. These clutches never have to slip.

And then there is the typical price difference. What is it? I really don't know.

Look, I have a bank courier buddy that drives +600 miles a day.
He couldn't care less about either of these two cars.
The car he drives is a Gen3 Prius, 130k miles on it.
Got his Gen2 taken out at +385k miles. It was still running strong!!

I understand to each his own needs. A person has a commute of XX miles.
Both of these manufacturers have a PHEV.
Which is best for a person is a straight forward evaluation.

WADR, Bill

 

Exactly. I want a car that has spacious cargo capacity and has (at least partially) substantial EV capabilities. I want that car to be able to be efficient at highway speeds on long trips, as well as providing the most efficient mix of HV/EV around town on daily commutes. (My commutes range from 5 miles to 40 miles one way.)

And, I wanted an HOV sticker for CA.

So, here's what my choices were besides the PiP:
1. Honda Accord Plug-in Hybrid. VERY cool car, but fails cargo requirement. Further, I'm leery of Honda's commitment to hybrid technology, and their very reprehensible behavior to those with hybrid battery failures.
2. Volt. Cool, but fails cargo requirement. Further, requirement for $.20-$.40/gallon extra for premium fuel and a dismal 30-something mpg ICE-powered fuel consumption after battery depletion made it a non-starter. GM's QC problems are another significant factor. (See a lot of problems with bearings reported already in Volt fora.) Also, cost of SCE electricity, with a Volt pushing household consumption into Tier 3 or Tier 4 would kill any financial benefit. (Of course, the saving of greenhouse gases and reduction of dino juice mitigates this concern somewhat.)

With the Volt, I'd have to get a Level 2 charger, or at least have a second meter installed to take advantage of SCE's EV plan. That adds another $2k-$3k, and I'm not planning on living in this home long enough for that to be repaid.

Again, you're right: to each his/her own. I'm happy with my choice and as the owner of a Gen 2 and Gen 3 Prius, I know exactly what I'm getting myself into. Reliability and proven track record.

 

Although, again, the combined MPGe number on VoltStats.net isn't very useful because they can't fetch any kWh data and just substitute the EPA estimate. My VoltStats data for March 2014 says my combined MPGe is about 67 but in reality it is really around 76.

 

The distance between the back of the Volt and the rear seats is not as deep as the Prius but the height and width of the hatchback area is actually slightly better than the 2004-2009 Prius. I moved homes a year or two ago and was able to pack quite a few moving boxes into the back of my Volt. It's really not that bad and, as a hatchback, the storage area is very flexible.

I'm assuming "dismal 30-something mpg" means the 34-37 mpg you mentioned in an earlier post. You would have to be driving at least 75 mph to get mileage that low on an extended trip. Most people get high 30's or low 40's driving 60-70 mph.

The Volt is just slightly lower than a Ford Energi at highway speeds, according to the EPA estimates, which is where the large majority of the gas mileage will be used for many drivers.

If you care, it's possible to get mid-40's mpg in a Volt by slowing down a little. I match the average Fuelly.com mpg for a 2004-2009 Prius driver by getting a monthly average of about 45 mpg.

That's misleading.

A few of the 56,000 or so Volts have had problems with a "bearing cage" on the transmission. Overall, it happens to only a small number of cars. It may be due to a manufacturing defect and seems to surface well within the warranty period. It is fixed without removing the transmission from the car since the bearing is along the outside of the primary transmission casing.

The Consumer Reports repair data for the Volt transmission indicates a solid red circle ( just like the Prius) which means that their subscribers who own the Volt reported much fewer than average repairs than an average car transmission.

Overall, the Volt has good CR survey repair data that looks remarkably similar to the data for the 2004-2009 Prius. The 2010+ Prius data is a little better.

There are special EV Time of Use (TOU) rate schedules available for many California owners. I'm on the E-9a rate with PG&E. A newer "EV" rate is available with no tiers but TOU. It charges just under $.10 per kWh for overnight charging.

I'm less familiar with the SCE rate schedules.

Few Volt owners in California need a L2 charging setup. I went my first year charging only at 120v at home. You can add 4-5 miles of EV range per hour of charging at 120v so you can easily add 30-40 miles of charging overnight at 120v. A full charge on an empty battery would take 9 hours.

I only switched to Level 2 when I moved to my new home since the garage had an unused 240v dryer outlet.

 

Of course, by slowing down and hypermiling one can get much better than mid-40s with a Prius.

Comparing a 2012+ vehicle with 2004-2009 generation vehicles is not valid. How about 2012, 13, and 14 Prius hatchbacks (or PiP's)??

The TOU schedules in SCE-land are ridiculous, with day rates exceeding $.47/kWh (and evening rates at $.31). The only rate plan that makes sense in SCE areas where A/C use is a given during summer (and the pitiful "baseline" used to set the Tiers for consumption) is the separate meter and charging at night. And of course, whether that's 120 or 240V only matters for charging time. With a Volt, as you've pointed out, you cannot avoid peak charges because it takes 9 hours on 120V.

 

Why?

My other car is a 2004 Prius so I'm comparing the Volt's hatchback storage against a car that I know. I assume the 2010+ Prius storage is slightly larger. I've driven a Plugin Prius for a few days but never measured or fully used the storage capacity. I assume people here are generally familiar with the previous generation Prius.

 

Here's a question for you Jeff If the Prius ever got let's say 30 miles EV, would you think about going back? And we'll say it's 5 seater and at least the same amount of room as a gen 3.

Realistically, I think the next PiP will be at least 20 miles EV and NOT 30.

But the Volt 2.0 will be 5 seater and I think will have an extended ev version for at least 45 miles or so.

Is there anything you miss about the Prius?

 

Because you are mixing points. The spaciousness of the cargo area isn't an issue, as the objective numbers clearly demonstrate a 10cf vs 20cf spec (and guess which is the 20cf?).

You cited the mileage from the previous generation of Priuses? What was the mileage from 2004-2009 Volts? (Rhetorical.)

You cited CR's reliability, comparing statistics from a 3 year old model with older, 4-10 year old models. Let's see how the Volt does in another 10 years before comparing reliability based on short term time frames.

This really wasn't intended to start a flame war, but to illustrate my thought process in weighing the candidate vehicles. And I really appreciate apples-apples statistics.

Peace!

 

Hey...I for one appreciate the comparisons! What did the Prius compare to when it was first released? Tesla?

We all know the newer Prius' are generally better than the olders on almost any given category...so just up the figures, mpgs, space etc...

Keep up the comparisons Jeff. I could compare my Prius to the old Jeep I used to drive. Yes, it's not apples-to-apples, but the vehicles aren't really either. Prius is about efficiency and as I understand, the EV portion about a PiP is pretty efficient as well, but Toyota isn't going to pour EV on (for some reason) as part of a strategy.

I think the Volt 2.0 will really say a lot about the Volt and heat up the competition even more!

 

The SDSU Aztecs Show (remember them Aztecs, Kansas?) have a saying:

"Nobody Likes Us… We Don't Care!"