France curbs Paris car drivers to combat dangerous smog

Very misleading spin on your part. Look at the ratio of diesel transport to diesel PM2.5 contribution from the graph I took from the article. 18% of vehicles in the inner city are petrol and they contribute 1% of PM2.5.
28% of vehicles are passenger diesel and they contribute 44% of PM2.5.

Summed up, a random diesel car is emitting 28 fold more PM2.5 than a petrol car in inner city Paris. Too bad their politics get in the way, or they would simply ban the pre Euro6 diesels.

 

Just like you ban all cars built prior to 1985 or 1997? Or ban 6 litre 1972 gas guzzlers. Or bring back the EV1

 

If they pollute like a diesel then heck yes.

 

Not sure when the program ended, (maybe 10 yrs ago) but in CA there was a program to crush older cars that failed the smog test...and the owner got paid. At the time I recall that something like the dirtiest 1% of cars produced 30 or 40% of the smog.

 

What is misleading in my post? More diesel cars will equal more particulate emissions are from diesel cars. When that population of diesel cars includes pre-DPF models and cars with DPF deletes, their contribution will be higher. Was it spin pointing out that the research was nearly two years old, and that diesel particulates have little to do with modern smog. NOx has more of an effect and stated diesel has a big part in that. Or was the spin that the majority of particulate emissions in the US from gasoline cars because they are the majority of the fleet.

Have you looked at the charts you posted? Passenger diesels made up 54% and 44% of the survey. They were responsible for 52% and 54% of the particles. I don't know where you got 28% of vehicles are passenger diesel from. It is higher than that.

The 44% is contribution from all local traffic. That includes the passenger diesel, passenger gasoline, the light & heavy duty of each, diesel public transit, and motor cycles. Diesel is the big contributer, yeah, but passenger cars around 1 to 1 percentage wise to it. Heavy duty diesel, commercial trucks are contributing 3 to 4 times the amount for their number. Due to their cost they are kept on the road longer than a car. Knowing how many have a DPF would be interesting.

A follow up study would also be interesting to see how the passenger car numbers trend. 70% of new car sales in France are diesel. These new cars will have the latest DPF. Some of the oldest ones in the fleet will get scrapped. But it would still likely have little to do with Paris' current problem. While the diesel fleet has a major influence on it, it isn't because of the soot.

 

The implication that the reason diesels are a major contributor to PM2.5 is explained by their fraction of the fleet, while ignoring the extremely high emissions/car.

Error correction: Passenger diesels in inner city Paris are 44%, not 28% I stated earlier. So the correct calculation of PM2.5 emissions of average passenger-diesel_car/average passenger-petrol_car is (54/44)*18 = ~ 21 fold

 

I didn't ignore the high particle emissions of diesel. It was a reply to your post, and I left your link intact when I quoted you. I assumed people could follow the conversation.

If it needs clearing up, my point was that it shouldn't a be surprise that diesels are the major contributor of particle emissions considering their numbers. None of the diesel supporters here have claimed that diesel cars had no part in causing the smog. Here's some more clarification of what I have said. Particulate emissions are a red herring. NOx and VOCs are the most likely causes. VOCs come from a variety of sources. Gasoline will be a far greater contributor than diesel of the fuels due to its volatility. The majority of the NOx comes from the diesel vehicles.

This is an attempt of misdirection on your part. You are trying to equal the average emission level of this study with that of every diesel car when that isn't the case on the road. A new diesel car with working DPF emits less particulates than a port injected gasoline car. The largest contributors to Paris' particulate emissions from traffic will be the small percentage of old, dirty diesels from when DPFs weren't has effective. The worse ones wouldn't even have had a DPF when new.

New diesels are clean, but making vehicles, regardless of fuel type, cleaner is just the first step. There won't be an improvement in air quality until the older, dirtier vehicles are scrapped. Due to their service life, it will take longer with diesel than gasoline cars. Barring the political and financial ability to speed it up.

 

Still spin. Consider that if the passenger car makeup of inner city Paris was 95% petrol and 5% diesel, the diesel cars contribution of PM2.5 would exceed that of the much more common petrol cars.
In a nutshell, diesel cars are the overwhelming source of PM2.5 in Inner city Paris. It is obvious, and I am finished arguing with you.

 

Source apportionment of fine particl... [J Air Waste Manag Assoc. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
These are the sources of PM2.5 in Washington, DC from August 1988 to December 1997. Pretty much before DPFs were in use. The study didn't distinguished between on and off road sources. So amount from cars will be lower for both fuel types.

For the number of vehicles, diesel's portion is high, but, again this without any diesel particulate filters is place. Those will reduce the amount emitted by 4 to 5 orders of magnitude. In fact, the cars will emit less than any gasoline car with the DPF in place.

The particle emissions from diesels in Paris and the rest of Europe will drop when the older pre-DPF and DPF deleted vehicles are off the streets. A program to speed that up would great, but diesel exclusion zones within major cities is probably the best that can be done at the time

At which point did I deny that diesel emissions were the major contributor to particle emissions in Paris? The only thing I denied was that the particles were the major source of the current smog, and then I laid the blame for high NOx on the diesels.

Is this deflection for calling you on trying to lump new, cleaner diesels with old, dirty ones with your spin?

 

The solution is simple, just look over to Germany where they have a green sticker that only a newer cars get and only those cars are allowed in inner city. Problem solved.

 

This is France we;re talking about. They have a big issue with fairness. They won't see it that the richer who can afford less polluting cars, should benefit over those who can't.

 

I am skeptical that the rich actually *have* less polluting cars.

 

If they are buying a new Euro 6 compliant car they do.
I suspect anybody that can afford a new car of any type is seen as rich in France.

 

New car registration requiring Euro6 begins 1/2015. No doubt a few diesels are Euro6 eligible already but I'll bet they are far and few between, expensive car or not.

 

Euro 6 applies to new models from 2014 and all cars from 2015. There are also some that complied previously, though few and far between.

Quite a few new models have been released this year.

 

Even an Euro 5 car will be a step up in cleaner emissions if it replaces a 4 or earlier compliant model.

 

I don't see a problem as long as you can have a old petrol EURO1 car with green sticker, everyone can afford one. The other thing to do would be to equalise petrol and diesel price (current 1.5 €/l vs 1.4 €/l).

But I agree you can't do that in a week, this thing takes years, first you announce that by the year 20xx all cars that don't meet emissions will be banned and people then have a enough time to adjust.

 

The issue with the Euro1 petrol car is that it can be, and likely is, emitting more NOx and HCs than a Euro2 diesel. Those are the likely contributors to the smog now.

Likewise, the positive effect from cleaner diesels and petrols will take years to have a noticable impact.

 

Not very likely, EURO1 is from 1992, EURO2 1996 permitted levels are in favor, but what are actual values?
I didn't find any old numbers, but for example a Petrol EURO3 permits 0.15 g/km NOx, Corrola 1.6 from that year emitts only 0.05 g/km, VW Golf 1.6 emitts 0.047 g/km. While diesel EURO3 cars are closer to the limit (0.5 g/km) Golf 1.9 TDI from that year emitted 0.3 g/km, Ford Focus 1.8 TDCI on the limit 0.5 g/km.

We are in year 2014, EURO3 standard is from 2000 that was 14 years ago, if you can't afford a 14 year old petrol, then you can not afford any car.

 

Euro 1 cars were made from 1993 to 1996 and whilst some were literally just petrol cars with a catalyst stuck on with good luck, many complied with higher regulations. I remember my old Jeep had a sticker under the bonnet confirming it complied with US emission regulations. Cars like Volvo's and BMW's etc would probably have complied with higher restrictions too. My old MR2 from 1990 had catalyst emission control, either though such requirements weren't legally required until 3 years later.

And the point I was trying to make is that Euro 1 cars are around 20 years old. There will be few of those around in regular use. Paris traffic is full of diesel, full of scooters and whacky races driving style.