Next voltec, what do you think of the new rumors

The facts areGen1 blazed trails where no manufacturer has gone before. The same can't be said of the Volt.

The Volt was GMs' attempt to steal some of the Prius' thunder.

In reality, the Volt has fallen flat on its' face if it was to be main streamed for the middle class populace.

GM rather than LEAD, likes being backed into a corner. The market is ever more crowded and competitive than ever. Shame on GM for not being proactive in entering and increasing market share. Tax credits, attractive leases, no or low cost charge stations - have not helped the Volt.

The Volts' time has come - and gone.

Its' time to owe up and accept this fact.

DBCassidy

 

If only gen1 Prius had $7,500 tax credit....

 

Yet, it was bigger inside than other larger classified vehicles. Look at dimensions, not old categories.

More importantly, how come no response about the system itself?

 

It had a 210,000 yen subsidy. Which likely worked out better for more buyers than a single year tax credit.
http://www.evaap.org/pdf/incentive.pdf

 

Which mid size cars was the gen1 bigger than on the inside? It had a cubic foot over the Corolla of the time in the cabin. The Civic and Cavalier, both classified compacts also, had 2 and 3 cubic feet more space than it. The Chevy even had another cubic foot of trunk space. The gen1, while slightly bigger than Toyota's other small cars, was on the small side of the EPA compact designation.

What is there to say. Toyota has a good system. GM's also seems to be, and I don't see a radical change happening in the second generation.

Besides the majority don't know how an ICE works. As long as the system is reliable, gives good fuel economy, and good EV range, the buyer needed to take the Volt to a larger market care more about a fifth seat than what is under the hood.

 

GM had the bailout and there were fed loan to LG Chem to subsidize manufacturing of the battery. All those subsidies were done to hit the $40k price tag.

$7,500 tax credit was addition to the buyer.

 

You did a few posts ago. So, I'm done with that.

Next is to explain how GM will overcome the loss of the government assistance. Such a large tax-credit on a vehicle struggling to deliver a profit is a very real problem.

Toyota diversified. Remember Echo? It was a detuned Prius delivered afterward to help bring about economy-of-scale benefits. Then came Estima, then Highlander, then Camry hybrids.

GM's plug-in one-size only stance is a self-imposed barrier.

 

And the Japanese government funded their own program into the development of EVs, hybrids, and fuel cells. The fact is we probably wouldn't have an electric anything in a car without some government money pushing things along.

Unless you are referring to something I said back 2012, I didn't see any need to talk about in the current context.

You think the next Volt will under go some profound changes for the next generation to reach middle market. I meerly pointed out that the Prius did so with the gen2. Small sedan to larger hatchback would be seen as a profound change by many. You seem to be denying that the gen1 was a compact though.

You think the profound changes will be to the drive train. I simply disagree with that. A better ICE is needed for fuel economy, but I don't see a radical change required in the hybrid system.

Like the Prius did, the Volt needs to grow some in size to accommodate families better.

The price has already dropped by around $5000. It is still higher than the average $31k paid price for a new car, but is close without the tax credit. I suspect we'll see the next gen Volt improve in fuel economy, EV range, and/or size in order to match the price, while battery prices continue to drop.

I remember the Echo. I also remember that the Volt uses the platform shared with the Cruze, and an engine block shared with the Cruze, Sonic, and a handful Opel/Vauxhalls.

It was 8 and 9 years before the hybrid Highlander and Camry came out. The Estima was out sooner, but used an assist hybrid system like Honda's. Guess we should count the two-mode and eAssist as diversification of the Voltec system.

Who is calling it one size only? The critics looking in from the outside? Because the ELR isn't that much of a leap from the Volt? A car I think is being built, in part, because GM said it would. They know it won't be a great sales success with competition from Tesla. A limited production run let's them save face, or can only Japanese companies do that?

Is there a technical reason that more powerful engines and motors can't be mated to the Voltec system for full size cars or trucks?

 

The context was comparing Gen1 Prius to Volt. Volt has a lot more incentives tracing back to PNGV.

Prius was a response to PNGV. GM Precept had dual mode hybrid which later became two-mode hybrid then simplified into Voltec (from Saturn Vue two-mode plugin).

Gen1 Prius did not have $7,500 tax credit to the buyer. If it did, the sales number would be much higher.

 

That has nothing to do with production cost. GM is a for-profit business.

GM had an abundance of real-world experience with Volt prior to rollout. Two-Mode used batteries & motors. So did BAS. And of course, let's not forget about EV1. Excluding all of that from the timeline comparison is just plain wrong. Toyota didn't have any of that prior to Prius.

Like most technologies, it boils down to cost. And I'm not interested in debating or rehashing. I'm pointing out goals that still have not been meet. The next Volt must address them.

 

The Prius as a response to PNGV is the story that is told today. The Japanese government and automakers have been collaborating from the 1970's on low emission vehicles. The initial focus was on BEVs. Hybrids and fuel cells came later, but all the advances made for BEVs was directly applicable to them.
http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9514/951407.PDF
Manufacturing the electric vehicle: a window of technological opportunity for Southern California | Carlos Quandt - Academia.edu
Government policy & the development of hybrid and electric vehicles in Japan | Think Carbon

Perhaps the Prius was a response to PGNV. Either way Toyota benefited from the government money spent on R&D over the previous decades in getting it onto the road.

The gen1 Prius was getting a direct subsidy of 210,000 yen from the beginning in Japan. Which covered half the 'hybrid premium'. The $7500 tax credit happened to cover about half the difference between a Volt and a fully loaded Cruze. As a potential buyer what would you rather have, half the price difference taken off the sale price, or a tax credit of the same amount, that you have to wait until tax time to use, and that you may not get the full value of?

Perhaps if the American companies had brought a hybrid to market back then, maybe there would have been more generous incentives on the gen1 Prius when it arrived. That's right, more generous. The $2000 tax deduction for a hybrid started in 2001. So while the only two hybrids that qualified for it at that time were assembled overseas by foreign companies, buyers of them got American tax payer money. On top of that, certain states were already giving out more generous incentives on top of the federal one.

So is Toyota, and they didn't see profit on the Prius until the second generation. On the production cost front the Volt is likely netting a profit. Accounting for R&D is another matter, but that is long term investment that's per vehicle value will drop with each Voltec vehicle made and sold.

Leaving out Toyota's experience with products and government programs that took place in Japan is just as wrong.

And yet you think continuing to point out the Volt's faults won't lead to debating and rehashing.

 

Again... somehow production COST must be reduced, yet some people still think that will happen while also getting a larger chassis, more refined engine, and longer range while also compensating for the loss of the tax-credit.

That's not realistic, so labeling goals as "faults" certainly isn't helping matters.

What can you tell us about that?

 

You are saying it hasn't reach goals. Wouldn't that be due to faults of some type?

Didn't Toyota keep the Prius costs down while going larger and installing a more powerful engine?

There are already Cruze hatchbacks and wagons available overseas. The Cruze sedan is already classified as midsize in the US. Getting a fifth seat will bump the Volt up a category under EPA class space rules. Offering more space with the current platform won't be much of an issue in regards to cost. Opel is coming out with a new 3 cylinder turbo. Using it in another model, the next Volt, will reduce its costs.

The cost for batteries is steadily dropping. The question is will GM increase range, maintain current range while improving the car's packaging, or offer both.

 

The truth is the bottom line: Toyota has done with the Prius what GM can not do with the Volt: sell their product. Also the Prius has become the gold standard in the global market.

DBCassidy

 

A lot is on the shoulder of Gen2 Volt. To keep up with Prius progress, it needs a big jump that Prius gen2 did in 2004.

And it needs additional $3k incentive that Gen2 Prius get that Gen1 didn't.

 

Gee, IIRC, didn't GM keep saying (about the Volt): "We had to build this car"?

The question is: why?

GM should (IF they did their market research correctly which they still have not done) have explained to the general public why they need to produce the Volt.

Also how GM will position the Volt to draw DEMAND for the product. This is for domestic and global markets.

None of the above ever came out of GM - to EDUCATE, INFORM, DRAW INTEREST to the Volt.

Nope, none of the above. As I mentioned in other posts, GM succeeded in getting our elected officials to fork out billions of taxpayers $$$ to save their a**es. Then have the Treasury Dept. sell back the shares to GM minus 10 to 12 billion that us taxpayers are on the hook to pay.

DBCassidy

 

Competition in the market place is good. The consumer benefits from this. The gen2 Volt has to be better in price, reliability, marketability, able to increase market share and position itself in the front of the pack.

Good luck to GM on this, they will need every bit of luck to have the gen2 Volt pull it off.

DBCassidy

 

A product (Volt) that does not meet its' goals takes up valuable real estate collecting dust in the dealers' lots. This is not fair to the dealers at all. They are in business to make money, have customer loyalty, and repeat business.

Dealers do not need a bloated lot of new and returned off-leased Volts NOT moving off their lots.

The dealers lose money.

DBCassidy