Non-hybrid cars that give good fuel economy (combined MPG)

1980's had some great Diesel cars, not all Diesels from that time frame were duds. Mercedes and Peugeot are two makes that know how to make Diesels.

 

Hmmm, they certainly weren't dud for their time, but they bear no resemblance to diesel engines of today. Even the very best diesel from the early 1980s doesn't compare to the worse of today.

And Mercedes and Peugeot did make good diesels then and still do, just others have caught up. BMW diesels are probably some of the best now. The VW Group also make good diesels.

 

True. Mercedes diesels from that era are popular for WVO conversions still today. It is just that in the US during that time diesels still weren't as popular as gasoline cars in sales, and GM's market share meant that those with memories of a 1980s diesel car were likely of a GM one.

 

The Fiesta hatch is 160" long and under 68" wide. Sure, you can get 5 into it, but they ought to be about five three and weigh 110 lbs or less. Good luck in an accident.

Fiesta sedan is 173" long, whoopee.

 

But the new Mercedes C diesel here gets 70 mpg UK (or 65 mpg UK automatic) compared to the Prius 72 mpg UK. It only costs a few grand more to buy, goes faster 0-60.

New Mercedes C-Class returns 70 mpg | Next Green Car

And the new Mercedes A class BEATS the Prius for fuel economy (manual transmission).

Mercedes-Benz A-Class returns 74.3 mpg | Next Green Car

The gen4 Prius had better be good or it will fail over here. Maybe that's why Honda have pulled their hybrid offerings from Europe?

 

That was unfortunately my impression too when I test drove the car.

Impressive improvements, but not in the Prius class:
The most fuel efficient automatic BlueTec is 109 grams CO2/km in the EU cycle, compared to the (IIRC) ~ 90 of a Prius.

To summarize, the Merc:

• Emits ~ 21% more CO2
• Costs ~ 15-20% more in the base model LOL
• Cannot compete with Prius reliability

Oh, but accelerates faster to the next red light. Grrrreeat.

As an aside, the future of hybrids in Europe is likely to be fine, if delayed by special interests. Read this article. The executive summary is that hybridization of the fleet is the only practical route to reach near future Euro CO2 targets.

 

I could show you loads of vehicles that almost match the Prius for economy BUT cost a lot less, but are the same size.

The Mercedes quoted was to show that even premium brands offer very economical cars. That might be the reason why Honda - the original hybrid seller - are pulling hybrids from our market. Whether that's right or wrong is another matter, but the fact is that many cars now compete with hybrids.

Euro Honda Civic - 74 mpg; HONDA Civic Tourer 1.6 i-DTEC S 120PS - CO2 99g/km

Sure it's not quite there on power but is acceptable here and is MUCH cheaper than the Prius. The base Prius is a good 20% more than the competition.

 

OK -- show me.

'almost' means within 5% of Prius' 90 grams/km CO2. I'll be generous -- use 95.
For size limit to hatchbacks and interior size again with 5% of Prius.
Nothing less than Euro5 emissions, although Euro6 is fast approaching, right ?
And keep it an automatic, for your American readership.

 

Just search any popular car magazine and see. The Civic Tourer gives 74 mpg compared to the Prius 72. The 2.2 litre Euro Mazda 6 Sedan gives fuel economy of 72 mpg, matching the Prius for economy and for size and performance. The Skoda Octavia (based on the VW Passat) gives economy of 74 mpg, matching the Prius for economy, size and performance. Vauxhall Insignia (same size as Prius) gives economy upto 76 mpg.

All-new Mazda6 Saloon | Specs & Prices (select diesel and then performance/economy)

New Octavia Hatch - ŠKODA

Vauxhall New Insignia 5-door Hatchback | Engines and Transmissions – Vauxhall Motors UK

Some of them cars you've not heard of or have, but very popular vehicles here nonetheless. Sure they're all manuals, but they're of similar spec, size and performance and outsell the Prius. Could quote you some more if I could be bothered to look them out.

 

I looked up the Insignia from your link. I picked an automatic diesel.

 

Yeah and I said the figures were manuals. But even so, the link you gave shows 65 mpg UK for the auto. Not bad compared to 72 for the Prius. So 7 mpg difference on a car that is expensive to service and fix is putting people off. Look up the service interval of the Insignia. Go on, dare you

 

My game, my rules.

So first, I cannot give a hoot about service interval. Show me 10 years of reliability data.
Second, the metric is grams CO2/km. Prius 89, Insignia diesel 139. My math is a little rusty, but I don't think that falls within the 5% allowance. Maybe you read '5' , but thought 50 ?

 

Sigh. The fuel economy figures are there, as is your bias. I drive a Prius, it isn't reliable. Your game your rules. Let's just hope Toyota don't play by them or sales will continue to slide. The links show the mpg figures and you choose to ignore them.

New Vauxhall Insignia 5-door | The modern hatchback from Vauxhall Motors UK

99g/km and 76.3 mpg

Doesn't bother me. It obviously bothered Honda who pulled the plug on hybrids and it is obviously bothering Toyota who only sold about a third the number of Prii in the last 12 months compared to 2010. Car sales in the UK are up significantly since 2010, so to lose sales in this period is poor.

But continue to cherry pick to prove your point.

 

Did Honda assemble their hybrids in country, or import them? Any incentives or fee savings from the lower CO2 rating likely is negated by any import tariffs. Then their diesels seem to get rave reviews. So it isn't surprising hybrid sales aren't doing well, and Honda would faze them out.

It is possible that Honda plans to come back with hybrids. The Insight, CRZ, and Civic are using the older IMA system. Honda's new systems in the Accord and Fit/Jazz are an improvement over the IMA. Pull out while sales are weak, refine the new systems in Japan and NA where hybrids have a market, and then reintroduce them in Europe. Could be the plan.

Since 80 something percent of cars in Europe are manuals, it is fair to use those numbers when discussing the market.

 

I wouldn't say manuals are prefered, though they are by some. It's just that fuel is so expensive that even gaining 6 mpg between a manual and an auto makes a big saving. The gap between a manual and a modern auto has narrowed, but our manuals are mostly 6 speed ones tuned for economy.

Honda hybrids were probably overpriced and a little weak. You get much more 'ooomph' out of a high torque diesel for the same money. Emissions on diesels were dreadful, but the new Euro 5 has helped a little and Euro 6 (which some cars now comply with already) which is due soon will help that further.

But look at it another way. You have a £22k budget and want a nice, large (for us ) car. Do you get a Prius, a Civic Sports Tourer (Station Wagon) or a Mazda 6? All do 70+ mpg UK on the Euro cycle, so are pretty much similar for economy. Some even get 80+mpg on the Highway rating!

In many Euro countries diesel is significantly cheaper to buy than petrol, so you can see the appeal there too. Toyota hybrids are the best and still compete. The Honda hybrids just didn't, were too expensive and just overpriced for what they were. There are import duties on all cars from outside the EU including the Prius, but the EU built Auris and Yaris HSD's are still quite expensive.

I think EU manufacturers charge a premium for hybrids in the same way US manufacturers do for diesels. Crazy.

So to conclude. There are many similar sized vehicles that compare with the Prius for price, size and economy and there are many smaller cars that match or exceed it. This has changed significantly since nearly 5 years ago when I first got my Prius and its economy was amazing and class leading.

Cost of petrol in that time has gone from £0.95p a litre upto £1.45p and down to about £1.30 or $7.80 a US gallon. Diesel costs more. A 30% increase in just over 4 years has focused the manufacturers minds for economy.

 

Euro 6 balances the emissions argument. Sure the older Euro 4 cars were rubbish for emissions, Euro 5 has improved on it and many cars beat it or match the future Euro 6 requirements.

Maintenance of the Prius at 10k miles is classed as low here, and the original 5k mile service is laughable. A modern diesel will have service intervals of 15k, 18k or ever higher with no detrimental affects within the life of the car. We also have warranties covering the car upto 100,000 miles (the entire car not just emission controls), so its in the manufacturers interest to ensure no issues.

The only down side with diesels here was the particle filter issues of 5 years ago, but they have mostly been phased out with the newer urea systems.

I don't know how many links to websites showing this before you accept that just because the Prius is the most economical car sold in your market; a market with low fuel prices compared to most of the World, that it isn't the only economical car out there. Just because they're not sold in the USA, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Maybe Mercedes should release the 65 mpg automatic (70 mpg manual) diesel, C220 in the US? Then would you accept that the Prius has competition?

Nah, probably not. If it ain't Toyota nobody wants to know on this forum.

 

I wish the U.S. market had more manuals tuned for economy, not performance. Here, the gap between manuals and automatics mostly reversed a few years ago.

With our cultural aversion to downshifting from top gear on any freeway hill below 10,000 feet, the manuals are handicapped. The automatics used to have the same gear ratios, but this part of our culture is more easily pushed aside because a computer, not a clueless driver, is doing the shifting. This has given the automakers the courage to push automatics to taller gear ratios than the manuals.

My household recently replaced an old ailing non-hybrid, 5 speed, with a similar new 6 speed successor. Despite morphing from car to small SUV, the taller gearing and other improvements produce significantly better MPG. But the automatic transmission version has improved even more, and is now rated 10% higher MPG than the manual.

 

How about this link. The Prius doesn't make the top 10, though appreciate that the ones that do are all manual diesels and in many cases much smaller than the Prius. Smaller cars are necessary here due to parking issues.

Most economical car 2014 | Auto Express

The top car, the Peugeot 308 is probably about the same size as a Nissan Leaf and it gets an amazing 91 mpg UK (75mpg US). The next largest car is the Skoda Octavia which is based on a VW Passat.

Peugeot 308 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Škoda Octavia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then you will see the Ford Focus diesel didn't make it into the top ten, but does still get an amazing 83 mpg UK. This compares to the Prius with 72 mpg UK.

Obviously these ratings will take a steady right foot to achieve, but the same is true with the Prius too. In real world you're likely to get mid 60's to the gallon or more. Is this why UK Prius sales have dropped by over 50% in a couple of years?

The latest models will comply with the new 2014 Euro 6 emission requirements, meaning they pretty much match or exceed the US emission requirements. No longer smoggy smokers like they once were.