Diesel Prius

No conspiracy as you've even agreed other manufacturers have released diesel hybrids. It's cost and that diesel engines don't like starting and stopping.

Also, the European market is on its knees. Japanese manufacturers don't sell well in Europe other than maybe the UK, Ireland, Holland and the Scandinavians. Why would they want to invest extra money in a car for a very limited and contracting market? They sell more than enough petrols in Japan and the US.

Anyhow. I'm repeating myself. It's all a great big conspiracy and nobody can see it but you

 

I'll keep galloping my hobby horse. Clean diesel isn't clean. I have daily experience of following new and late model diesels blowing clouds of fumes. The filter technology has a limited life span and is expensive to maintain so many drivers don't. then it's the problem of the particles you can't see which are really doing the damage.

 

But the annual safety and emissions check will find any vehicle that hasn't been maintained. Big drums of adblue urea additive can be bought at lots of service stations now - usually next to the screen wash so be careful what you buy.

I also think there's a big difference between the dpf's that use fuel to clean emissions and those that use urea. The high end cars use the latter and do not appear to blow smoke like diesels of only a couple years ago did. But you notice it's high end cars. Ones that can absorb the extra cost.

 

FWIW, I think the reason you don't see it is pretty simple. Putting a diesel in a Prius would likely not improve its efficiency significantly.

The Atkinson cycle engine in the Gen 3 achieves a peak efficiency of about 38%, and maintains near peak operating efficiency over a pretty wide range of rpms and loads in part thanks to the variable gearing/loading of the PSD. A traditional ICE might vary from 20-28% over the same range, while a small TDI might run from 33-41%. In other words, by using the Atkinson cycle engine, the Prius has already picked up most of the efficiency gains that would be expected from switching to a diesel engine. In addition, the electric drive system's strengths compliment the weaknesses of the Atkinson cycle engine nicely, which doesn't seem to be as true for a diesel. This could easily wipe out any remaining advantage in efficiency the diesel might have had.

 

I'm seeing BMW, Mercedes, Range Rover blowing smoke on rapid acceleration and you can always smell 'em.

Hope your feet are dry Grumpy!

 

Yeah but they'll be older models OR your emission levels aren't the same as ours for the same model years?

Yeah my feet are dry, but I'm on a hill. I'm more worried about my roof remaining attached to my house!

 

Yo can not compare 3.6L V6 to 2.0 TDI, in Europe we have the latest thing called downsizing and comparable petrol engine to that 2.0 TDI is 1.4 TSI. Belive it or not.

Here is chart:


The TSI has a little less torque and less power, but it has more usable rpm range and max power over a larger range. When you add transmission and 80 kg lower weight in the equation you get same 0-60 performance. The fuel economy difference:
Übersicht: Volkswagen - Golf - Spritmonitor.de

1 l/100 km difference translates only to 8% greater fuel efficiency of TDI, and we must consider that people here who buy petrol cars do a lot more city driving than with diesel, because everyone is afraid for their DPF. And people with diesel cars drive a lot more km, that by the definition gets better fuel economy.

Again you can not compare fuel consumption to a dinosaur V6 engines people normally buy in USA.

Diesel engine efficiency with all the filters peaks at 42% efficiency, but you must understand that that means at around 60+ kW in 2.0 TDI you very rarely use this range in normal driving, Prius Atkinson cycle engine gets 37-38% efficiency in lower power range from 10kW to 40kW, or the most usable range under normal driving conditions.

 

Hang on then and hope it blows over soon! We're fighting fires.

I'm talking about new and recent models. And yes our policing of emissions policy is more lax than yours.

 

FWIW gasoline engines also blow a lot of emissions on hard acceleration, they are typically just less visible.

My understanding is that US vehicle emissions ratings are tested using a standard driving cycle that all vehicles can execute more or less identically. The upshot of that is a 372hp Charger Hemi V8 may have an LEVII emissions rating, but only if you never accelerate any quicker than a Chevy Aveo. Emissions at higher levels of acceleration are not measured / regulated to my knowledge. So its hardly a surprise that many vehicles are programmed to run richer on hard acceleration which improves performance, but also results in less complete combustion, cools exhaust gases reducing catalytic converter efficiency, and pumps out a lot more emissions. Including soot. Soot from gasoline engines tends to be much finer, hence harder to see, but unfortunately finer soot is also considerably more detrimental to respiratory health.

I'm not a particular fan of diesels, but IMHO small clean(er) modern diesel passenger cars are not the worst emissions offenders on the road any more by a long shot.

 

Come stand by the side of a road in a busy European city and see if that changes your view

 

I don't doubt that it's an issue, but I'd still take that over some of the vehicles I see here on a daily basis. The diesel pickups mod'd to blow black smoke out of 6" stove pipes cut up though the bed for example make me wish I'd opted for the grill mounted 50 cals sometimes

By comparison the newer tdi VWs seem like we're on the same team, even if they're not my personal preference.

 

I totally agree that petrol engines also blow soot but the point really is that the particular form of soot (carbon) emitted by diesels is in micro particles that emulate the effects of asbestos on the human body. While the black emissions of diesel engines are offensive and choking, it's the invisible emissions that are long term deadly.

 

Most of the particles emitted by petrol engines are also micro particles (actually mostly in the nano-particle size range). DPF is very effective in removing particles of all sizes, including nano-particles, which is why petrol vehicles, especially GDI, should be filtered (GPF).

 

Filters eventually clog, are expensive to replace and humans, being what they are, will by-pass or ignore them. We really need to leave the internal combustion dinosaur behind.

 

Until their annual emissions tests when the car will fail and not be able to legally driven until fixed. Failing the MOT (UK annual safety and emissions test) and subsequently driving is illegal and will invalidate your insurance, which is another offence.

Just it's an expensive repair. Also, petrol emission systems seem much more robust and take more abuse than the diesel systems seem to take.

 

While police here in Victoria are empowered to issue defect notices they mostly concentrate on young hoons. Otherwise we don't have roadworthy inspections unless the car is to be sold.

 

Because the expensive urea emission control system that is generally available only on high end UK diesels is mandated on ALL US market diesels. This system cleans up the exhaust amazingly.

The cheap fuel injection diesel particle filter systems don't appear to work anywhere near as well or as reliably, but they do seem to clean up the exhaust better than nothing. The older Euro 4 systems and earlier were just dirty.

Next time you see a brand new Jaguar or Mercedes Bluetec diesel, have a look inside the exhaust pipe or run your finger inside - it'll come out clean (obviously don't go burning yourself etc ).

Now whether these systems make it to Australia where emissions appear not as important; didn't Ford close production because they couldn't make the cars comply with Euro 5 without high cost - let alone Euro 6 which our new diesels are to comply with. Ford plant closures influenced by emissions legislation | Manufacturers Monthly


An even stronger standard, Euro 6 standard will come into force in Europe next year and in Australia in 2018, while the US and Canada already enforce standards comparable to Euro 5.

 

Toyota already has a very efficient engine with near diesel efficiency, its the 1.8 valvematic. People are averaging 36 MPG with that engine and can reach 41 MPG on HWY.

 

Oh mate. We also have 1.8 petrol engines and I can tell you, even with the Euro fuel efficiency tests the diesels will beat a petrol hands down. Even the Prius has competition from diesels now. I still don't think a diesel hybrid will be cost effective though.

Once you start paying over $8 a US gallon, you'll soon realise that there's a big difference between petrol and diesel economy in cars. Even 5 mpg difference over a week doing 15,000 miles a year is a significant difference at $8.30 a gallon

I also mentioned in another post the new Mercedes C Class diesel that can almost match the Prius for fuel economy and cost!

New Mercedes C-Class returns 70 mpg | Next Green Car

70 mpg on the Euro cycle on the Mercedes compares to 72 mpg for the Prius. So what is classed as economical in the US, even with your $4 a gallon is still classed as a bit of a gas guzzler here