Diesel Prius

I'm not necessarily advocating or even suggesting that diesel in Prius makes sense. I'm just disputing that modern diesels are the "environmental bogeymen" some commenters are making them out to be, for the reasons outline in my previous posts.

By the way, the HEI press release summarizing the full report of ACES Phase 2 is available at...

http://www.healtheffects.org/Pubs/ACES-Phase2-Final-Press-Release-120413.pdf

 

I agree! I don't like the extra noise!

 

As a diesel owner since 1999, I have no complaints other than the high cost of diesel fuel.

 

I think the pickup trucks are still noisy because that is what the owners want, not because diesel needs to be that noisy anymore. The diesel car buyers have grown out of any such need.

 

I don't know the answer but one answer might be that diesel is dirty, no matter how efficient. The Europeans have really got it wrong promoting diesel there. Even they are starting to realise it. I think Toyota thought they might come to their senses sooner.

 

We already have here and diesel fuel is now more expensive. The problem is that the German and French car lobby is very powerful and both their car makers like diesel.

 

Down side of EU.

 

lol, as you well know, it's a complicated issue living next door to many different countries and cultures, all with differing ideals and wants. It's different being in your own continent with your nearest neighbours (with the same language and culture) only a thousand miles away.

The emission laws in Europe are lower than the US. Why? Because to tighten them up would hurt the diesel lobby.

Vehicle emissions in Australia match the EU's pretty much, but with such a massive land area and comparatively few inhabitants, your cities and surrounding areas won't stink like ours. You can smell London about 50 miles before you get to it!

 

That's not universally true. Euro5b & Euro6 standards for diesels for both CO and PM are more strict than Tier 2/Bin2/LEV II SULEV emission standards in the U.S.

In the case of particle emissions, Euro5b/Euro6 not only imposes a more strict emission standard for PM mass than the U.S. (0.045 g/km = ~0.007 g/mile; Tier 2 = 0.01 g/mile), but also very strict emissions standard on diesels for particle number (PN - 6X10^11 particles/km), which is a much higher bar than the PM mass limits. EU is proposing to implement a relaxed PN standard for GDI for Euro6 through 2017 (6X10^12 particles/km) apparently because GDI is fundamentally incapable of hitting the diesel PN limit at this time.

Why doesn't Europe just impose the same PN limit for Euro6 GDI vehicles that it does/has been for diesels (since Euro5b was implemented), even if it means filters (GPF)? Caving to the gasser lobby?

 

Yeah. just forget about NOx
Any vehicle fitted with DPF will read 0 g/km PM under EURO cycle.
CO emissions of diesel and petrol engine in practice are about the same, the EURO limits for petrol are higher than for diesel, but so what.

 

You might like this;


E-PRTR

 

Last I knew, much of Europe was VOC-limited with respect to ozone (photochemical smog) formation (The weekend effect). As such, reducing ambient NOx concentrations either is ineffective or may actually increase ground-level ozone formation ("weekend effect"). In these conditions, VOC emissions are what controls ozone formation, and are what is needed to be reduced.

Does Europe have an air quality issue with NO2?

 

It would appear from that maps that we do

 

I would question that article
- It's from 2003
- It's from Europe (diesel lobby)
- how long does it take for the smog to escape from the city
- experimenting with closing city traffic has minimal effect

Couldn't ozone problem come many days from the actual forming of emissions? We had a major ozone problem this summer in gulf of Trieste, even higher altitudes in Alps had problems with ozone. If you look at the Grumpy link you will find that that region has many pollutants, from transport, shipping, industry ...

Passenger cars may be only part of the problem, but I think we can't deny it.

 

It's fundamental atmospheric chemistry that NOx can either create or destroy ground-level ozone. VOCs are what interfere with the ozone/NOx creation/destruction process, and gasoline vehicles are the primary sources of VOCs.

Biodiesel Magazine - The Latest News and Data About Biodiesel Production

 

NO2 is somewhat heavier than air, and a conversion would need to be done to convert from micrograms/m3 to ppb, but it appears that EU's one-hour ambient air quality standard for NO2 (NOx = NO + NO2) is higher than the U.S. NAAQS but the same or lower for the annual standard.

All areas in the U.S. have been in attainment with the NO2 NAAQS since 1998. Are any area in the EU in non-attainment with NO2? If not, the EU needs to be cautious about reducing ambient NOx relatively more than VOC to control ground-level ozone.

 

And diesel hybrids ARE available in the UK but are not selling. Why? Because a diesel engine costs more than a petrol one. A hybrid system costs more than a manual gearbox. Add the more expensive diesel engine to the more expensive hybrid system and you have a much more expensive car overall.

Peugeot offer a number of diesel hybrids that are actually pretty good but have you seen the price? They start at £24,800 upto £30,700. Volvo offer a plug in diesel hybrid and it costs £45,000!!?!?! You could buy two base Prius or three base Yaris hybrids for that.

So you made a point that diesel hybrids are wanted but they're already there, for sale, now, but aren't selling well!

Why would Toyota want to spend much more research and development costs for a car that would only sell in small numbers (see Peugeot sales) and only in Europe?

You might also know that Toyota are to stop making diesel engines and get BMW to make them under licence. Why? Because it's not viable for Toyota to design and produce them for the few hundred thousand sold only in Europe.

 

A rough estimate is that Toyota hybrid drive train costs roughly 5,000 EUR extra on top of a normal VVT-i engine that is based on. If Toyota would mate the small 1.4 D-4D into hybrid that would be another €2k, at least.

What would you get for that €2k extra:
- My estimate is 4.3 l/100 km compared to 5 l/100 km in petrol hybrid (more than 1 €/100 km saving in my country, but it would be actually more expensive than petrol hybrid in California)
- 113 g/km diesel vs 116 g/km petrol CO2 emission
- more torque means less engine revving under a medium load (40kW just over 2,000 rpm)
- more engine noise and less power under full load.

For fuel economy you can compare Peugeot 508 diesel hybrid (200HP) with Lexus IS300h (223 HP) or Camry Hybrid, or Accord Hybrid ..:
Übersicht: Peugeot - 508 - Spritmonitor.de
Übersicht: Lexus - IS300h - Spritmonitor.de

Here the difference is 1 l/100 km, so there is no way that the difference would be more than 4.3 vs 5 in a smaller engine. The energy and CO2 saving is only around 5% compared to petrol hybrid, some European countrys still have diesel cheaper than petrol, but the trend is obvious and those differences will not last for long.

So who will pay 2,000 extra for diesel hybrid, that have the same fuel costs than petrol hybrid and has more complicated engine more prone to expensive repairs? Only some Europeans (cheaper diesel) are willing to do that who will develop a whole new drive train only for Europeans and 1 person in US?