1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Cabin Blower stopped

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by noisebeam, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    1,686
    340
    0
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    II
    It looks like the logic for the PWM is negative going, such that +5V at S is the off state, and 0V is the on state. That would make sense of your second set of readings. A high K-ohm input reading at the BMC would be about normal. So far so good. There is a possibility that the A/C output is just an open collector output, and requires the pull down impedance of the BMC to make a proper looking waveform.
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I'm getting a bit confused. Page 7 of 7 in the repair manual pages attached above suggests that the square wave peak-peak is supposed to be 11V. OP measures 5V peak-peak. How does this point to the BMC being the failed component?

    The repair manual says that if the measurement of 11V is good, then replace the BMC. If no good, then replace the A/C amplifier. As far as I can tell, the OP's measurement is "no good".

    Since the OP is borrowing a scope, I suggest the OP ensure the scope is operating as expected:
    1) If the scope's probe calibration signal output specifies peak-peak amplitude, make sure that square wave signal displays a vertical displacement as specified.
    2) Use a known good voltage source (say, a new 9V battery) and make sure the scope trace displaces ~4.5 divisions when the vertical input sensitivity is set to 2V/division, for example. (Actually, a new 9V battery will produce ~9.6V so to be precise, the scope trace should displace ~4.8 divisions @ 2V/division vertical sensitivity.)

    Also, if OP needs to probe a wire for a voltage measurement, rather than cut the insulation, I suggest inserting a small needle into the wire to pierce the insulation. Then attach your probe to the needle. That might be less intrusive to the wire.
     
  3. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    That confused me as well. I was expecting the reverse based on the manuals posted in this thread
     
  4. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Agreed on discrepancy between 5V measured vs. 11V in manual. Note I also used a DVM to check the voltages which ranged from 3.5V (LO) to 0.2V (HI) which is consistent with the scope reading I got of 5V p-p with higher duty in LO approaching 0 at HI.

    I do need to check the scope using the techniques you noted.

    (As to the wire, it seemed like a thin solid core with very thin insulation, so it was easier to scrape a tiny bit of insulation off vs. sticking a needle into it which would not have sufficient material to stay stuck into.)
     
  5. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I believe you can remove the visible clip on the right-side of the lower center panel. There are six hidden claws and clips that hopefully will release as you tug at the panel.

    OK. Unless you find an error in the scope measurement, it sounds like the A/C amplifier is at fault.
     
  6. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I 1st tried with fully charged NiMH AA cell (nominal 1.2V, but usually around 1.4V when fresh charged)
    DVM: 1.38V
    Scope: 1.42V

    Then a 9.6V NiMH cell:
    DVM: 9.3V
    Scope: 9.4V

    Not sure about calibration of either, but the voltage reading of both is close enough to what it should be as to not be root of 5V vs. 11V delta in measurement. Delta between DVM and scope could be calibration or could be differences in load (?)
     
  7. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Sounds like the scope is working fine. Usually a scope is rated for ~3% or so error on DC voltage measurements; AC voltage measurements depend upon the frequency of the measured signal vs. the vertical channel bandwidth of the scope. That should not be an issue with the very low frequency signals we are dealing with here.

    What kind of scope are you using, BTW?
     
  8. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hooked up scope again between S1 (tapped into wire) and body ground.
    Confirmed 5V peak to peak (0-5V in fan settings 1-6)
    The square waveform is consistently 200us for one cycle.
    At fan setting 7 (HI) the voltage is 200mV with instantaneous spikes of ~1.5V every 200us.
     
  9. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Tektronix TDS 360
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Interesting that you see a waveform period of 200 microseconds, vs. the service manual's illustration which shows a two-second period.

    If you set the horizontal time/division to 500 milliseconds/division as per the manual, what do you see? (This is the same as 0.5 seconds/division) You may have to set the trigger to NORM, not AUTO.

    If there is a stable image, can you take a photo of the scope image and post?

    OK, this is spec'd at 200 MHz bandwidth, two channel model. That is certainly more than sufficient for your testing purposes here. However, this is one of the first digital scopes made by Tektronix so watch out for display artifacts that may be caused when the horizontal time/division control is incorrectly set compared to the signal's actual period.
     
  11. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    1,686
    340
    0
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Here is the waveform that you should be seeing, attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I 'zoomed out' to horiz division from 100us (autoset) to 1sec. It just zoomed out on waveform as expected so that at divisions ~500ms or higher it approached a 'solid block' of trace as the resolution is not fine enough to see the waveform at that scale. I saw no difference between normal vs. auto trigger. Doesn't seem like there is an actual period of 2sec per cycle as the manual shows.

    Out of curiosity I disconnected the motor (terminals M) output of the BMC while checking S1 and there was no effect on voltage or freq. on the S1 input to the BMC. I did this as a long shot if the A/C ECU requires the BMC to be connected, I wondered if having the motor attached to BMC could affect its input impedance, but there no change at all, not even a wiggle (assuming of course the motor is giving the correct load, I suppose I can meter that too)

    I'm still not convinced enough that this odd S1 signal (wrong freq. and wrong voltage peak and decreasing vs. increasing duty cycle at higher fan settings) of the S1 signal points definitively to the AC ECU. Could also be a harness or plug connection issue, but I'd suspect then the issue would have a 'dirtier' (less stable) signal and/or be somewhat intermittent. It also seems odd that bad AC ECU would only cause this S1 signal issue and no other symptoms.

    When I get access to the AC ECU I can measure the harness resistances and the direct output of the AC ECU to check, but I may not be able get to that until later.
     
  13. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I was looking at my copy of the repair manual, and the scope picture shows 50 usec/division (50 microseconds) with the waveform period covering four divisions. This is different than the docs posted by noisebeam and nh7o.

    Noisebeam is actually finding a waveform with 200 microsecond period, which appears valid based upon my repair manual. The only remaining question is why the p-p amplitude is only 5V vs. 11V per the manual.
     
  14. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Thanks for that check - curious as to two manuals. I have a Prius with a Sept-2004 manufacture date noted in inside of door jam.

    Besides the voltage discrepancy, the duty cycle is also declining vs. increasing with higher fan speeds is also an open question.

    I an open that this all could be user error - I think I am hooking up and using DVM/scope correctly, but I am a mechanical engineer. ;)

    Also want to say I appreciate everyone who has contributed and helped me out. Keeps me motivated to dig deeper and I am learning a bit about Prius, electronics and diagnostic methods. Although it may be frustrating if I end up having to take it to the shop after all this.
     
  15. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    To reconcile these two measurement findings with the repair manual, I hypothesize that the air conditioner amplifier is at fault. My guess is that the output which noisebeam is measuring is faulty because it has an open-collector inverter which has shorted and the input of that inverter (operating at TTL 5V logic voltage levels) is being passed directly to the output. This would explain why the waveform shape is opposite to what the manual depicts, and the voltage is 5V instead of 11V.

    If the OP does not find any fault with his measurement technique when he measures directly at the A/C amplifier output, I would feel confident that part is at fault.

    The OP might want to check here to see if a used A/C amp can be purchased at a reasonable price:
    04 and newer Prius Parts Cars

    My manual is for the 2005 model year. My guess is that when the manual was uploaded to techinfo.toyota.com there may have been some editing which in this case was done in error. It makes much more sense for the control pulse-width-modulation signal to be operating at 5 kHz instead of 0.5 Hz.

    Also, you should have no doubt that you can fix the problem yourself. You already know that the problem is either with the A/C amplifier or the blower motor controller. So worst case, you can buy and install both and call it a day.

    However, as stated above, I would say there is a 95% likelihood the A/C amplifier failed if you confirm the scope measurements directly at the A/C amplifier output. Please make sure of the earlier measurements (described in the seven page manual excerpt) which confirm the presence of battery voltage at both components and that the wiring harnesses are providing good ground connections.
     
  16. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    How encouraging that I am at the cusp of confirming root cause with a few more measurements and also there is a logical explanation for the output I am measuring.
    How depressing the replacement may be a $400 used part. (I've already sent email to the business you linked above)
    Again thanks for the help. I'll see if I can get some away from family car time tonight to finish off those measurements. Once the temps hit mid-80s here (in the low 70s now) my wife will have no more patience for a non working A/C - fortunately right now heat or cooling are not needed with the perfect temps we have.
     
  17. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    1,686
    340
    0
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I agree that there is a possibility of a typo in the manual, as the low frequency does not make sense. However, the tech using the logic pulser in the video does indeed seem to be getting a low pulse rate. That may be due to the way the pulser itself registers input. So I'll be curious to know what the real answer is.
     
  18. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    There are other differences. In the video the BMC (blower motor controller) is attached directly to the blower motor assembly/housing - snaps right into it (it is shown in the video frame on p1 of this thread). In the Prius I have (and in the service manuals shared around here) the BMC is a fully separate self contained component that mounts under passenger dash.
     
  19. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,482
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    The video is of a 2010 Prius, and apparently Toyota implemented a design change for G3, where the BMC is integrated into the fan housing to give the BMC the benefit of the cooling air flow.
     
  20. noisebeam

    noisebeam Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    64
    4
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I have now learned that used, but working (not tested) AC amps/ECU can readily be had for $40. (I thought $400 as those were prices on saw on ebay and other parts websites)
    I suspect a used BMC can be had for even less.

    I think I will order both and just get this done. Will still end up costing far less than dealer repair.