Lug nut torques with first "tire rotation"

One would think that the lowest category of grease monkey would be able to rotate a set of tires without screwing up, but as you discovered, that's sometimes not the case. Your dealer got it wrong.

I once had a Chevy dealer rotate tires on my full sized pickup (I had a coupon for a free rotation). When the next rotation was due, I tried to do it myself as I've normally done before. But I had to use a 6-ft cheater bar to get the nuts off of one wheel. I went back to the dealer and they found that they'd torqued the nuts to 240 ft-lbs instead of the specified 140 ft-lbs. Had I needed to change a flat tire while on the road, I never would have been able to remove the flat tire (no cheater bar). Also, the extra 100 ft-lbs of torque could very well have damage the studs possibly causeing a wheel to come off. The dealer first claimed that they couldn't have over-torqued the nuts because they use a calibarted settable torque wrench. What they didn't take into account is that such a wrench is too complicated for the average moron to operate. The dealer went out of business a couple of years ago.

Then there was the time I asked Costco to do a 5 wheel rotation on that same Chevy pickup. Before I let them start, they assured me that knew how to do it according to Chevy spects. Well, they didn't (they used the wrong pattern; one not approved for any circumstance, so far as I know). I had to have them do it over. I now rotate the tires on the pickup myself even though Costco would do it for free if I asked. The only way you can make sure that something is done right is to do it yourself.

 

There was a saying that it is easier to loosen a bolt than to tighten it, so I am not sure you can accurately measure what they torqued it to by using the wrench to loosen it. There was clearly an issue in your case because each nut was not the same! They aren't supposed to use an air ratchet to tighten the bolts, but time and time again I see almost everyone use them. There must be a way to make it not tighten so tight, because some places do seem to do a pretty good job at keeping the nuts tightened properly. (I can crudely tell when I go home and loosen then retorque each bolt one by one by how hard I have to push to loosen each.)

I'm not sure I clearly understood why the wrench needs to be held in a certain place, although I've read it many a time on the instructions that come with torque wrenches. What the solid "bar" of the wrench feels/measures at the pivot seems to me to be the same wherever you may apply a force on it. You will need to apply a greater force as you get closer to the socket, and less as you go out toward the handle, but what is required to make the correct torque at the nut would be the same wherever you held the bar, wouldn't it?

(In my experience Costco, or at least the ones around me, does a good job at applying the right torque.)

 

After my dealer rotated my tires one time I broke my trusty 3/8" Harbor Freight (cheap) breaker bar at the knuckle joint trying to loosen the lug nuts. I ended up having to get the correct 1/2" breaker bar to get the lug nuts loosened. (Harbor Freight replaced my 3/8" breaker bar under lifetime warranty !)

Along with overtightening the oil filter and drain plug are the reasons I do my own service now.

Sam's, like Costco, is very good about using the proper torque sticks when tightening lug nuts. One of the reasons that I prefer purchasing Michelin tires from them along with Road Hazard Warranty.

 

It's hard to believe any professional at a dealership could screw up something as simple as a tire rotation; but it happens all to frequently. If they are to loose you could be going down the road and say "hey look someones tire just rolled past us" moments later the sparks start to fly from under you car! To tight and eventually when you brake you will feel the pedal rising and falling with the warped disc's! Like a smart person said in an earlier posting "If you want it done right; do it YOURSELF!" Get yourself a good torque wrench and at the very least when you get home from the dealership re-torque all the wheels then you will know for sure the correct torque is applied. (I need to change my picture to reflect the v5 we just got)

 

I understand that dealerships, tire stores and chain service centers over-torque to limit liability in the event that a lug backs out a little or comes off. However, the wide range of torque applied to the lugs is incredible to me and indicates a significant lack of training and/or craftsmanship.

OP, you used your expensive torque wrench to loosen (in my circles you NEVER use a torque wrench to loosen) the lugs and the cheapy HF wrench to torque? Sounds a bit crazy, amigo.

 

You want to know why million dollar athletes still take batting practice and do zillions of free-throws?
Easy.
They call them 'fundamentals' for a reason. That's because they are.
"Professional" wrenches either get paid by, or their work performance is measured by the job. Faster wrenches turn out more work...make more money for the dealership (or themselves.)
Even the most anal of these will screw up on occasion---at best.
At worst?...you'll get the guy (or gal) who is just coming off a weekend bender...or just had a fight with the CFO...or just doesn't give a crap.
If they put the lug nuts on tight enough so that they don't work themselves off (German torque specs: Goodentight) then 99.44 percent of their customers will never know the diff. In fact...the next guy or gal that works on the car will certainly not notice that the lugs are too tight, since you need a special wrench to measure break-away torque, and what's the point? As long as their air tool will remove the offending lug nut, then nobody will ever be the wiser!
OK...so here's the deal...as 'splained to me by a friend who is a wrench at an indy shop.
It's not so important to get the torque to within a MCH of the "specified" value as it is to get all six (or five, or four) of them torqued equally, within the limits of the bolts. Usually...the dealer will use one of these gollywog colored clutch sockets...and usually...they work fairly well.
Still......whenever I have tires rotated or replaced, I'll drive the vehicle home. Then I'll break the lugs loose and refasten with a Mark-1, Mod-0 torque wrench. Dial-type, Craftsman.
You really don't need this level of precision, $9.99 Harbor Freight beam wrenches will work juuuust as well for this application! AND...you can loosen bolts with them too. Unless the bolts are wildly misstorqued? It's just not going to matter all that much---even on a Prius with its paper-thin rotors and feather weight alloy rims. In fact.....rotor and rim warping, and all of the other evils of badly miss-torqued rims haven't really been a problem for any of the Prius models from my experience......and if there's one mod that Prius drivers really love to indulge themselves in, that's RIM replacements and/or snow tire swaps.
The only reason that I re-torque the lugs is to make sure that they're tight enough, inspect the threads (and LIGHTLY apply anti-seize) so that I can get the tire off on the side of the road with the cheesy tool that's in the spare tire kit.

So....the take-away from my perspective? If "Joey Bagadoughnuts" replaces one of your rims, and if you have a couple of wrenches? Check his work. As mentioned above, you "really" don't want to loosen lug nuts with a dial torque wrench. Re-tighten them with whatever wrench you prefer.
Using a dial torque wrench isn't rocket science. Snug the bolts with the breaker bar...say hand tight plus about another 20-30 lbs. Then use the torque wrench so that it will 'click' when you're in mid-stroke at the desired tightness.
Relax and enjoy the pride of doing the job correctly.

If you don't get the hang of it....let Joey do it. 99-percent of time? He'll get it close enough, and life is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too short to worry about the 1-percenters. It's MORE important to check oil level and tire pressures after Joey works on your car!!

Either way?
I wouldn't lie awake at night boring holes into the ceiling with a worried gaze.
Really.
It's LUG NUTS!
Before alloy rims and disc brakes?
They just used to tighten them as tight as they could. It's not that critical!!!

 

Snap-On is okay with using their clickers for CCW torques. Just because you can doesn't mean you should Maybe I am too old skool...

Some BMWs will exhibit a front end shimmy if the lugs are not accurately torqued. The E39 chassis is incredibly sensitive to under or over torqued lugs (they demand 8o lb/ft).

 

Wrong ! Incorrect torque can easily cause damage to your brake rotors. Plus, you should re-torque your wheels after 50 to 100 miles after removal and reinstallation. Wheel torque is not a trivial issue.

 

So, when I am torqueing my lugs, the wrench must be moving when it "clicks"? And then, if I want to just check and make sure the lugs are at the proper setting, can I apply pressure with the torque wrench while the tires are on the ground? And lastly, if I want to retighten my lugs, can I do so with the car on the ground, without jacking it up, and just loosen the nuts slightly, or does the car need to be in the air when torqueing to get the most accurate torque setting?

 

Static coefficient of friction being generally higher than dynamic/kinetic coefficient of friction.

 

I'm also thinking, it might be hard to verify install torque accurately, by removing a nut.

I can tell gross deviations in torque, though. For example, if we've been in an accident, and the bodyshop's needed to remove and reinstall a wheel. Come snow tire install time, I'll be going 'round the car breaking loose the lug nuts before raising it, and one corner has the nuts tightened like the hinges of hell, lol.

But other than that, not sure. I do recall one tire place we used, I'd watch: their regular guy did the majority of the swap, then the boss came out at the end and hand torqued them all. That was commendable, I'd say.

 

Avoid shops that torque them down until the threads strip out, then back them off a quarter turn (for insurance).

 

Mike, the last sentence in your post, "That's because it takes a lot more force to "break loose" a fastener that is not moving."

I'm not understanding this. If a fastener is not moving, how can you break it loose?

I've read enough of your posts to believe you are one of the more knowledgeable people around here, so explain this to me.

​

 

(replying for Mike)

This is because static (not moving) coefficient of friction is generally higher than dynamic/kinetic (moving) coefficient of friction.

 

So, if I want to retorque the lugs with the car on the ground, what procedure should I follow?

It seems to me that loosening all the lugs with the car on the ground before tightening make the wheel get off center, if this makes sense.. Would it work to leave car on the ground, and loosen and retorque each nut one at a time?

 

There is no need to pre-loosen all nuts at once. One at a time works fine.

OTOH, with hub-centric rims fixed by lug nuts, the risk of off-centering is small. It would be significantly greater on non hub-centric rims fitted with wheel bolts, for example, early 1960s Porsches and VWs.