Diesel vehicles beat out gasoline-powered cars in low ownership costs

I would point out a few differences between Merkins and us Brits. Merkins like:
- larger engines
- larger vehicles
- heavier vehicles
- shorter gearing
- automatic transmissions
- driving lots of miles
- idling in drive-thrus

Against diesel in the USA:
- cheaper fuel
- tougher emissions controls
- some locations in the USA have large diesel price differentials; varies by region
- diesel fuel is lower lubricity
- diesel fuel is lower cetane number

Overall there's a lot of room for growth in the USA and I think VW could have grown the market more if they hadn't have treated diesel like it was an exotic performance feature for so long while complaining about an unfair tax disadvantage that isn't unfair at all.

 

I'd say VW was more taking advantage of holding a monopoly due to lack of interest from the other makes to maximize profit The TDIs were in mid trim equipped models and priced accordingly. The performance aspect was more because Americans value that over fuel economy in general. The economy minded people are disappointed that VW and GM don't offer their smaller diesels her, but reviewers and most people would be unhappy with the slower acceleration.

 

Presumptions again. There are 2.0 diesels that get near Prius economy and are faster than the Prius, some even around the 7 or 8 seconds mark for 0-60.

Sure there are some Euro diesels that get greater than Prius economy BUT they have about 80 bhp on a manual gearbox and crawl to 60 in about 15 seconds - unacceptable to you - for now

 

The question I have is who is in charge deciding what Diesel Cars are sold in the US? (Rhetorical)

There are many efficient diesels sold through out the world, some even made by US based manufactures, that the US market would love. Even the often discounted Smart Cars of past with it's diesel motor did +/- twice the MPG the current gas offering does here. When I purchased my 2006 Beetle TDI, before UL Sulfur, the lifetime total cost still beat the same year model Prius, even without it's then $3,000 over sticker price gouge.

Our choices are limited to the available choices made for us.

What the title states is as open to interpretation as a similar thread "Hybrids don't make financial sense". There is no one correct answer for everyone.

 

I read the LA times article, for you all that cannot be bothered. Executive summary:

IF you intend to pick a VW or a Benz, AND you ignore maintenance and repair costs, THEN the diesel comes out cheaper.

<<yawwwwwwwwwwn>>

 

And, our diesel member experts here in this forum did not explain it to Bob Lutz?

 

Note also that the OP study was extremely narrow. The included gassers were only those that also had diesel versions available. I.e. it covered only a small portion of the non-hybrid market, and I'd surmise most of them were not on the low-TCO side of spectrum.

Hybrids were excluded, as were the great majority of the US-market traditional gasoline cars from the companies producing most of the low-TCO cars.

 

BMW's 2.0 seems quite nice, and gets near the Prius on the highway in EPA ratings. Same with the Cruze for that matter. Generally though, once they are equipped with emission controls for the US, they do lose some fuel economy. The Cruze and Jetta both have smaller than 2.0L diesel offerings overseas, but the manufacturers feel the more performance of the 2s are easier to sell.

If that were true why did the article say, "They also consulted information on insurance, maintenance and taxes among other factors from Vincentric, which analyzes ownership data." Or the actual study, "We combine these estimates with three and five year estimates for repairs, fees and taxes, insurance..."
The study: http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmfile/20130311_CD_UMTRITCOFinalReport_dd2017.pdf

Isn't this the same guy that called hybrids wimpy and other adjectives of a similar vein?

I have pointed it out that this so, if not in this thread, then in others. The study authors wanted to study the TCO of these vehicles over 3 and 5 years. That eliminates the new comers Cruze, BMWs and Audis. The Jeep Liberty CRD was only available for a couple years, so likely left out for that reason. Which leaves models from VW, Mercedes, and the 2500 class pick ups from Dodge, Ford, and GM.

Comparison to other gas models and hybrids may have given a wider perspective, but it would have been too wide. The study's goal was to see what the difference between diesel and gas was. Start comparing across different models and makes and you introduce more variables. Is the difference then because of the different fuel choice, or is due to a difference in the vehicle model or the companies culture.

A repeat of the study in the future would be interesting. Not just for the Cruze, but because the Jetta has a gas, diesel, hybrid, and turbo DI gas offering.

 

For you all (y'all or you guys or yous guys) that missed the closing statement of the newspaper siting conclusions interpreted from various government sources ...fear not.

"According to Edmunds.com analysts, the diesel VW Jetta was the third-most-considered vehicle by people shopping for alternative-fuel cars, trailing only the Prius hybrid and Tesla Model S electric car."

As I stated...There is no one correct answer for everyone.

 

A moment's thought should tell you that Vincentric does not have any repair cost or frequency data. Hell, they don't have maintenance cost data either; they just use the manufacturer and dealership recommendations. It is actually a bit hard to believe that this 'study' came from a university. Their methods section can be summarized as 'proprietary.'

'Real World' my ar$e.


Want another example of their GIGO ? For depreciation they use MSRP - auction_value. Auction_value sounds like a fair metric, but MSRP ?! LOL. MSRP is a marketing ploy, and there is absolutely no reason to conclude petrol and diesel cars were handled in similar fashions.

And ... another shortcoming of the study: they used fuel prices from around 2005 when diesel was cheap. Nowadays diesel is about ~ 20 - 25% more expensive than 87 Octane petrol in my state. That already negates any $/mile advantage over a petrol twin and then the rest of analysis favors the petrol twin in every other metric.

Ludicrous, really.

My Prius costs over TEN years have been 1 cent/mile maintenance and repairs, 10 cents a mile capitalization, and 6 cents a mile for fuel for a TCO of 17 cents a mile excluding insurance. Diesel owners are welcome to post their data.

 

The U of M study was just the most recent of studies which have the same conclusion. A few earlier studies...

Green Car Congress: Survey Finds US Hybrids and Diesels Beat Gasoline Models on Full Cost of Ownership

News Detail : Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon

Gas Saver Hybrids, Diesels vs. Standard Cars | Which Are Most Affordable? - Consumer Reports

 

Can I post my ownership costs? They're not happy reading!

 

Of course; and if they were in any way typical or common then people would be well advised to consider them in value comparisons.

 

Please do GrumpyCabbie. Common, typical or not...all information is good.

 

I think you are right on the money. I have owned two diesel pickups and a diesel rabbit, these were older cars and I think they were a good choice when diesel was less expensive than regular. when I got my first diesel was 99 cents and I think regular was about 1.30, my next was 93 ford and diesel was about the same price as gas, diesel passed gas in cost and I started to regret my decision. I traded it for a gas pickup.

recently I owned a diesel rabbit. the repair costs were fine however the 40-43 mpg with fuel that cost 25% more didnt make sence and the car was unsafe in my opinion, no air bags and built flimsy, kind of like driving a go-cart next to real cars. and so I went to a gas car that got 30+ drove fine but was a lemon AKA dodge neon. so dumped it and bought prius c. this car is heaver than rabbit, uses less fuel, the fuel is much cheaper, and it is very safe, has AC on an on. the initial cost will take years to get back over my rabbit that I payed 700 for. after 10 years with fuel staying at the same costs I will be ahead and still have a nice safe car.

 

its too bad that we dont have a site like fuelly that has all this info for everyone to see. like wholecostauto.com showing over the life of a car. start with the (purchase price - resale value), cost of oil changes ect., cost of repairs, cost of fill ups and how many miles the car has driven. this would over time show some intresting info. some say its just as cheap to buy a car then trade it in after 3 years instead of owning a car longer. I like to keep a car that I got new at least 10 years. with this type of site everyone could look and see. compair whatever you want to people who have actually recorded what their costs were.

 

Edmunds and Kelley Blue Book both use those recommendations for maintenance for their TCO calculations. For repairs, they use the cost of zero deductible extended warranty. I couldn't confirm how Vincentric does it precisely, but it appears to be an accepted practice like the maintenance. Individuals are free to use their own values based on diy or personal mechanic for the procedures the feel are necessary. This is going to vary from person to person, which negates its usefulness for a broad study like this.

Perhaps a fair market price from Edmunds, KBB, or CR would have been better. How readily available are those figures going back a decade?

Gasoline was cheaper back then too, but the study didn't use 2005 prices.
"We developed our fuel cost model with three and five year estimates using the combination of the model year of the vehicle from Mannheim, average annual gas and diesel fuel prices from the EIA, the number of annual miles driven based on vehicle survival analyses from NHTSA, and vehicle miles per gallon from the EPA. We also adjust fuel prices to 2011 dollars using the CPI."

During times of the study diesel and gas prices were both lower and higher than they were today, an they were adjusted up for inflation to 2011 values.
Weekly U.S. All Grades All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon)
Weekly U.S. No 2 Diesel Ultra Low Sulfur (0-15 ppm) Retail Prices (Dollars per Gallon)

 

I don't know about car price, but TrueDelta does this for maintenance and repairs.