Study: Government Favors EVs over Diesels

In gasoline cars, owner at least have an incentive to keep engine properly maintained, as it is directly affect fuel consumption. Not so with Diesels.

 

Can we add World Health Organization (WHO), also favors anything over diesels; and comparing diesels to EVs, really?

 

EV's are much more economical in urban areas and highway commutes in "stop and go" traffic as well as traffic jams.

While diesels have nearly as much highway mileage moving as EC's and hybrid, they keep on burning loads of fuels and add to pollution even when they are at idle and not moving. Diesels are still spewing out CO2 even when stopped and idling.

 

the article is about hybrids and ev's vs diesel. audi wants diesel because that's what they make. u.s. government has it righ on this one. there should not be any diesel subsidies here, unless we want our air and soil to become like europe.

 

Any proof for that? Diesels need to be maintained for best efficiency as much as gasoline cars. It might even be more so in modern ones. Ignore all the warnings, and let the DEF run out, the vehicle eventual resorts to a limp home mode in which the top speed is limited to 25 to 35mph.

Their biggest evidence involves off road diesels(no emission controls) in a confined space(a mine). Under those conditions, the higher CO emissions of gasoline might just have killed the miners outright.

Same with gasoline vehicles that make up the vast majority of the ones on the road. While idling, a similarly sized engine burns less fuel than a gasoline one.

Our air and soil won't become like Europe's. The are few pre-emission control diesels on the road. Their market share is lower than hybrids. They will die off and be scrapped.
Starting a few years ago, any diesel now sold has to meet the same emission requirements as gasoline cars. Some do just meet the minimum requirements. Some exceed them. That is also true of gasoline models. If we had been as lax as the Europeans with gasoline emissions as they were with diesel, our air and soil would be dirty too.

 

I am by no means a Diesel expert and I have never driven one, so my questions to you as an expert:
What happens when you run out of reducing agent (Ammoniun Hydroxide or whatever) used to reduce NOx (in trucks at least)?, will the performance/MPG will be affected? How the regulator can catch this?
What happens if you drive the car with the particulate trap is inefficient and needs replacement (and this is an expensive item) will it affect performance/MPG? Can I run this way for 6 months more until my annual test is due? Can I take it off completely and put it on for the test only or is this too much trouble?

 

Yes you can run the car on an empty urea tank BUT performance will be significantly reduced to the 'limp home' mode. Your dash will also light up like a Christmas tree.

You can also run the car with a damaged particle filter but again, depending on model, it will cause warning lights at least and possibly reduced performance. Also, because it is blocked it could be causing damage to your engine.

Some early models allowed you to remove the dpf (I might have been guilty of that in the distant past) but the newer ones are much more in built. It's like trying to remove the cat from a petrol car. It would probably run but will flash warning lights and because other items like oxygen sensors are now reading outside perameters, you will probably get reduced performance.

To be fair to diesels. The urea/ad blue systems appear much more reliable than the systems that pump in extra fuel to burn the soot. The former systems are more expensive of course. Adblue additive is easily available at most service stations and truck stops and isn't as expensive as it once was.

 

Here in the UK diesel fuel is higher in price than petrol (gasoline). The UK government offers incentives to purchasers of hybrid cars. I cannot understand people wanting to buy diesel motor even with incentives, as it is a backward step. Surely incentives ought to be made available by the US administration to hybrid car buyers in the US. More demand for these would galvanise manufacturers to develop better batteries and motors etc and help bring to the overall costs.

 

I agree Skater. But I do think diesel has a place (other than trains and trucks ) in SUV's or people who drive the motorways, but cars used in towns should be petrol, hybrid or preferably EV.

I did a report to York council a few years ago showing the emission benefits of a hybrid (or even a petrol) compared to a diesel. The NOx emissions of a modern diesel against the Prius is about 20 times higher. A Euro IV diesel sold up to a few years ago was about 200 times worse, with some Renault diesels being nearly 2000 times worse! One family driving around town in their 2009 Renault Grand Scenic was creating the same emissions as 2,000 Prii! And then with the Prius, the engine isn't running all the time. This year York council introduced a hybrid taxi policy to help reduce emissions. Great news. Every knackered old diesel Mondeo replaced with a Prius is a significant emissions improvement.

US diesel emissions are stricter though and a diesel car is the same as a petrol car for Nox emissions, though it will be strapped with much more emission equipment and their diesel costs much more.

On that note, I think the UK is going the right way with it's tax on diesels. Shame that London allowed diesel cars into the CCZ though. A backwards step.

 

Hi Grumpy, that's a real eye opener and one helluva damning statistic " 2009 Renault Grand Scenic was creating the same emissions as 2,000 Prii!

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Something like that. Just been looking up the figures and the 2.2 dci Grand Scenic Euro IV emitted 1.075 g/km of NOx compared to the Prius giving 0.006 g/km. People always look at the CO2 figures but NOx is important, especially if you, your relatives or children have asthma or similar.

Can't find the one where it was 2000 times more, but I'll keep looking. It was on an article about the highest and least polluting cars in the UK. It was a large Renault diesel automatic that was only just within the limits at the time and think it was Euro 3 perhaps. If you're bored you can try searching it

 

some here are trying to obfuscate by comparing diesel's to gasser's. i reiterate: the article is about ev and hybrid government incentives. not about gasoline fueled vehicles vs diesel.

 

I'm gonna call you GrumpyBisco from now on

 

you and my wife!

 

I believe I stated earlier here that diesels don't need incentives. Perhaps a little kindness in the YMMV foot note on the sticker on how the tests tend to underrate diesels would be nice. The price difference between fuels is enough of a hurdle to keep diesel numbers lower than hybrids.

Just to had some details to Grumpy's post.
DEF(diesel exhaust fluid) is the generic term for the fluid. There will warnings on the dash when the tank is low. If the tank runs out, a dash warning comes up to fill it before next start. It will run normally with greater emissions at this time. Don't want a car cruising on the highway to suddenly lose power. If the tank isn't filled by next start up, more warnings and the car is in limp mode.

How well does a car run with a potatoe stuffed in the exhaust? Even without dash warnings, a blocked exhaust causes performance issues.

When the CEL comes on in a gas car the emission system switches to a default mode. There may be no noticable change in performance, but fuel economy will drop from not using oxygen sensor feedback for fuel trim. I imagine modern diesels are the same.

There are people that defeat emission controls, or made emissions worst on older models, in the pursuit of greater power and fuel economy in diesels. The manufacturers are making it harder to do so in newer models, but I'm sure some will still find a way. There are also the same minded people doing some with gas vehicles. They are just a lot harder to spot without the puff of exhaust smoke.

I take it this is with Euro V? Any idea how the numbers would be with Euro VI?
Hybrids are a better choice for taxis regardless, just wondering how much an improvement Euro VI will be.

 

audi is upset that they are not getting a bigger piece of the american taxpayer's wallet. everyone knows they have no interest in hybrid's, ev's, middle eastern oil consumption or the environment. any of those concerns would spoil their 'image'. they are never going to sell a significant number of diesel vehicles here, but they wouldn't mind getting their hands on a few billion american dollars to give it a try. not that they are any worse than gm. just more posers.

 

Probably not much, assuming the emissions systems keep reliable in town use. The only benefit is that the hybrid will have its engine off when stopped (as do many diesels here now) but the hybrid will also have its engine off in very slow traffic (unlike any diesels). Let's just hope the hybrid battery lasts in that use as it appears the there are issues in that department

 

Shame as some of the Audi diesels are the best in class, esp the 2.0. I wonder if it's that they can't sell them or don't want to incase it tarnishes their image in the US?

 

Audi has 2 new cars and a SUV diesel available in the US. Cleanmpg.com did a cross country in 48hrs while beating EPA rally with not that long ago.
VW has released the Jetta hybrid this year, and unveiled some EVs with talk of one coming to the US(I expect for ZEV compliance). Audi has also done some work with their E-tron line up. With the other high end German makes offering hybrids, it is only a matter of time before Audi gets in the act.
Audi, or any car company, would love to get some subsidy to help sell their cars.

 

it's just not a diesel culture here. they are advertising them now, but i don't believe they'll make any substantial headway. people who buy audi's have no love for the things i mentioned above. and they certainly have no need to save petrol. audi is a status symbol here. they almost went out of business many moons ago because of 'sudden unintended accelleration', but did a great marketing and engineering job since then and it's quite a comeback. at least in my neck of the woods.