Plug in Supply Questions

Short answer is that the battery and boost converter can only supply 35hp. Making them handle more doesn't make sense in a plugless hybrid since the time you should be using electric assist (very low load like start&stop, or providing an assist during hard acceleration) you don't want/need more power than that. the new PHV can take ~50hp from the battery, so it is close to an all-electric car while in it's EV range, but still has the ICE to fall back on. You could make a brilliant EV from a Prius by putting a ~100hp motor in place of the ICE, and retaining the rest of the hybrid system. You'd have ~135hp available, tons of torque and retain reliability of the Toyota system.

 

This issue of the PIS ECM controller was raised over a year ago and since then PIS has come out with a price list for DIY installation which list this PIS ECM for $250 (DIY Pricing - Step 6).

I have been considering the PIS conversion for about 4 month now, along with a couple others. I have decided to go with PIS because I like the system and the DIY package deal. Others would do this but didn't have any instructions and would require a training visit for at least the first install.
Eventually I will be converting 3 Gen2s for family and friends, these being either 6kwh or 10kwh battery packs. One feature that I liked, and just confirmed with Robb, is the ability to install everything but the battery pack and ECM controller into either car and install the them at the end, as the demand requires. In other word, if we find that a 6kwh conversion owner needs 10kwh, I can make the upgrade in short order with out any rewiring.

Another item I should mention here, the 6kwh battery pack is actually the same as the original 4kwh pack that was offered but uses 15ah Headway cells insteed of the 10ah cell. This was per Robbs recomendation in our early email comunications. (the nominal price of the 15ah is ~$30. and 10ah is ~$19) So you can see the cost of the increase Ah cap and price is proportional, with the cost of BMS board, bus bars, hardware, etc. is constant.

I'd like to do the full 10Kwh converions on all but the 4 or 6Kwh packs can be laid flat over the spare tire and would be manageable if you wanted to access the spare tie. While the 10Kwh pack(s) combine weight, even with the spring upgrade, would make the spare weight a major considertion in the end.

A lot to consider, but at least I have the opportunity to make my own choices and pace as I go along.

Steve

 

Is Enginer still in business? I duno . . . the Enginer kit is/was a far cry from systems that more completely integrate into the Prius' hardware. Enginer put a kit together for the Nissan Leaf, and I have yet to hear one good comment about it - despite the bargain price.

 

Enginer has gone out of business for some time now. The PHEV options are not improving.

 

Enginer may sell thru some dealers in the USA they have a phone number on website. motor city and someone else in michigan

 

...never mind..

 

I have several questions, and while this thread is old the topic seems to match:
1. Does the PIS BMS periodically rebalance individual cells, or do they have to be manually removed and rebalanced periodically? (KA7OEI's blog: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFEPO4) batteries revisited - Equalization of cells)

2. Is there any data regarding how many years/miles these battery packs last in practice, or how often they need to be rebalanced for optimuml life? With current gas prices it would take 13 years/162,000 miles for the expense to break even according to the best estimates I could find (213mpg highway). (If you look at my above link, two year old batteries were restored to better than new condition by rebalancing, so I am optimistic that periodic rebalancing will lead to a very long service life.)

3. Currently on the 10kwh system they offer two options:10 Ah cylindrical or 40 Ah prismatic What are the pros and cons of these two options? The prismatic are slightly cheaper, so why wouldn't one go that route? Are cylindrical more reliable, do they support higher current draw due to the larger number of lower capacity cells?

4. Does the DIY kit come with everything you need besides screwdriver, wrench, and voltmeter or do you have to also buy some sort of separate charger to balance the cells, such as X4 Four-Channel Multicharger ?

5. The PIS website makes references to the car being garaged above freezing temperatures. Are these conversions not suitable for winter use? Does winter use damage them or are they just weaker when cold? Are there specific battery options that are more cold tolerant?

6. Is there any data on what sort of mpg the PIS conversion gets at 70mph on a 50 mile round trip commute with no charging at work?

 

all good questions. all i can say is, if you read thru various threads, none of these systems are plug n play.

 

I have completed the install of the PIS 1okw pack, made up of 76 Calb 40ah cells. This was a DIY install and I provided my own battery boxes and cabling. Also I ordered my Elcon battery charger directly. I did the batteries and charger this way because PIS doesn't take credit card orders and back charges the PayPal fees. I am have had a few problems with my system and each instance I have dealt with them directly through the vendor and with some assistance from Robb at PIS. I am currently awaiting a one replacement cell from Calb (the mfg. in china) and they are still evaluating the charge performance of two other cells that I have reported.

I will try to address your questions by the para. number, as I feel I am qualified:

1. I am not an expert on battery balancing but as I understand the individual Cell Boards function in the overall BMS system, each cell board monitos and controls charge and discharge of the individual cells. There are several threshold voltage levels that these board monitor on each cell and functions that are controlled. This activities may be noted by three different colored LEDs on the boards.
Red LED on means the cell is over 3.65v and the power transistor is on and is burning off charge. (The red LED will stay on whether the system is on or off. )
Orange LED means the cell is over 3.65v and the boar is open circuit on the signal wire. That is the cell board is resistance is way over 2,000 ohms. This will cause the BMS controller to stop charging by opening the charger enable circuit.) Meaning all cell charging is stopped until this cell voltage drops to the 3.65v.
So Balancing only takes place when the Red LED is on. This is called Top Balancing.
Green LED means the cell is over 2.6v and less than 3.65v. Normal under EV driving conditions.
No LEDs lited means the cell is less than 2.6v. The EV pack will be disconnected from the HV battery system until pack has recovered to a voltage above 2.6v or recharged.

2. As stated above, not and expert! The cell boards are only doing top balancing and since the batteries are only discharged to 2.6v or about 85% SOC there isn't an opportunity or need to bottom balance charge.
The jury is still out on battery life on these batteries because of these conservative charge and discharge cycles. IMHO.

3. PIS offers the cylindrical cells in their 4kw pack and the 40ah cells in their 10kw packs. I understand Robb can provide a 6kw pack out of a slightly larger cylindrical 15ah cell in slightly larger pack size. The 1okw pack is about as large as you can get within the area available and you wouldn't be able to do that with the cylindrical cells.

4. The DIY kit comes with most everything except the tools. Since I did my own batteries I had to provide all that hardware as well. Robb sold me the Mid Bank links at my request. I also purchased the bus bars from the batt. vendor. This "pick & chose" arrangement left me with a few gaps in some minor connectors with Robb provide in the end. If you have him make up the battery packs, all the Cell boards will be pre-wired and installed. This process took be a couple days since I did some preliminary balancing in parallel before connecting the in series.
Anyone who build their own pack should have or be prepared to purchase a cripper for 4 gauge and larger cable connectors. (~$110, Grainger supply)

5. I never read or heard of any cold weather problems. I know I ask about putting the battery charger under the pack (in the old tire well ) but was told that it needed ventilation while charging.

6. First I must tell you that PIS has discontinued the sale of the ECM controller that was suppose to allow EV at speeds over the 53mph limits of the OEM EV limits. According to Robb, this was due to problems with high current draw damage to the standard lithium packs. Right now, the best you can do is "enhanced hybrid/EV mode". Your not going to have any all EV advantage at constant 70 mph, since the ICE will be providing the primary effort above, say 60-65 mph.
Per my observations of this "enhanced" mode: Light start out in EV and gradually reaching city street speed to about 35-45 mph. Any increase or grade beyond this will bring the ICE but the mileage stays up around 85 to 99.9 mpg. Under these conditions, local driving. I can get range of about 35 to 40 miles on my 10k pack recharge when I get home or go to a public station if available. Otherwise, my mileage drops to about 75mpg as the ICE provides recharges the OEM HV pack since it will have dropped below the PIS pack as it goes down to 85% SOC.
Some may get better mpg with better driving habits. But over 63 mph, your not going to see much savings.
Again, my experience at highway speed. Starting with a full charge (live 1 block from 60mph highway) I bring the car to 60 with light exceleration on near flat road way for 30 miles then slight down hill for the last 10 miles. I note the pack is providing primary and the ICE is on and off somewhat as there is a slight increase in grade, and some regen on the down side. MPG stays at 85-99.9 mpg. If I'm lucky the pack will last until I get to the down grade and I gain considerable Regen but seldom reach the the 40 miles before the pack is totally down to <85% and kicked out. If I let the pack recover a bit, I will kick it back in if I have a long down grade to gain some Regen. Noting, that at <85% the pack is out and regen has no place to go once the OEM HV pack is fully charged.

Again, these are my observations and opinions as I am learning this system. Some of the more technical stuff is from emails that Robb has provided me to aid in my understanding of the system. As I mention, early on in this reply, I am currently dealing with problems with 3 cells that have effected the range and performance of the system but I don't expect much more than 40 mile range the pack and am currently getting pretty decent mileage on local drives if I can charge when the pack is down and about 70-85 mpg on highway drives to 6o mph if I have to return home without recharge on the pack.

Steve

 

Quick question on your reply #1:

Do you know at what voltage the Red LED turns off? i.e. How much charge does it bleed off?

 

Your article is very useful information for me about the cell board.
Been a great help to me as live far
I'm user that has a 2012 prius gen 3 and got a set of 4kw of PIS in june

Here's something I'd like to ask questions.
1. As shown in the battery pack , some cell modules has completely dead( not illuminate any light).
Why have and what the problem?
2. Jumper settings are correct at now? (images attached.)
- After purchasing from PIS, no longer get any answers from them
So would be appreciated get the help at here..
JUMPER SETTING
J14 CELL LOOP: ON
J15 CELL LOOP BYPASS: OFF
J16 IGN DELAY: OFF (not written at manual)
J23 DISCHARGER LATCH DISABLE: OFF
J18 CHARGE LATCH DISABLE: OFF

 

Another satisfied PIS customer.

It appears that the BMS has allowed some cells to be discharged below 2.5 volts, when this happens the green LED turns off. This indicates that these cells have been overdischarged. If these cells have gone below 2 volts then they may have been permanently damaged. This could have happened as a result of bypassing the cell loop whilst still using the kit. This may also occurred as a result of a faulty rear control board which may need to be replaced.

 

Thank you very much for your kind answers..
Rear board's jumper setting is may be faulty...
So I want to check my setting is correct or not..

MY JUMPER SETTING
J14 CELL LOOP: ON
J15 CELL LOOP BYPASS: OFF
J16 IGN DELAY: OFF (not written at manual)
J23 DISCHARGER LATCH DISABLE: OFF
J18 CHARGE LATCH DISABLE: OFF

The cell roop Led light is on all the time?
In my case, when install the J15 jumper the light is on all the time but not using jumper not illuminate..

 

You really need to understand the function of the cell loop. It has the function of protecting every cell from over-charging(3.8volts) or over-discharging (2.5 volts). When you bypass the loop you remove the cell protection which will lead to cells being damaged.

There are 76 cells boards connected in series. Each cell board protects each cell. The cell loop signals that a cell has reached 3.8 volts during charging or reached 2.5 volts during discharging.

When you install Jumper 15 you are removing the cell protection. If you use your kit without cell protection you will damage the cells.

You need to check if your settings are correct with PIS.