Plug-In Hybrids; Ok as EV, Ok as Hybrid, "Half & Half"

opinions are like you know what, blah, blah, blah...

 

"It's not great on any dimension" -uh, price? Musk lists all these features that aren't great or just OK (in his view) on the Volt or Leaf, but neglects to mention the enormous price difference. Let's see you make a better car in the $30k range. It's much easier to address his complaints about the Volt or Leaf when you are charging 2.5x more.

The Tesla seems to be an amazing car if you can afford it; if you can't, the Volt or the Leaf are a big step forward and in the right direction. We need more of both. Why disparage that?

 

Tesla CEO Musk is trying to sell and market his more expensive Tesla S model as being better than the less expensive Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt in. The market for hi end EV and plug-in is pretty small - so Musk isn't taking any chances since the Tesla has already been outlawed in several states for not having an established dealership network.

IMHO the PiP is best viewed and used as a Super hybrid

 

Of course he ignores the fact that after a couple hundred miles, the Tesla is DIW for a recharge. Meanwhile the Volt (and PiP) can keep going for a couple hundred more miles and fill up in a few minutes.

This is where the PiP shines. The Volt gets less per gallon and needs premium gas. So while on the short haul the Volt is "better" after 70-90 miles the cost curves cross in PiPs favor.


iPad ? HD

 

The 1.4L in the Cruze and Sonic is actually a premium fuel engine. GM only labels it regular because of the negative views the premium label has among the public. I experimented with it. Premium increased fuel economy in a Sonic by 2 mpg. Because the engine response has changed, this might increased further with experience running the fuel. At the 2mpg increase, and 25 cent price difference, running the premium was a tenth of a cent cheaper per mile than regular.

Typically, the cost per mile is the same running regular or premium in a premium tuned engine.

Yes, the PPI does better on a long trip, but the long trip is not the daily trip for a majority of people. Even with long trips, a Volt could end up using less fuel in a year than the PPI for most. Buying a PHV with the highest CS mpg because you take a few long trips a year is like getting AWD because you might have to drive in the snow. It's nice when you can make use of it, but most of the time it doesn't add much to the daily, and possibly is a hinderance in some there.

The PPI does have other advantages over the Volt that maybe important to the buyer. Choice is good.

 

Boy, was he was tired and what's with his bad hairdo?

 

It's not great on price either.

His comment wasn't "Buy a Model S, not a Leaf nor a Volt!" It was that in order to increase sales you need to make compelling vehicles, that neither the Volt nor Leaf is truly compelling and that Tesla's aim for the Gen 3 is to make it compelling and affordable, basicallly a BMW 3 Series killer.

 

But the Tesla Market is not about money - anyone spending +70,000 USD for a car is looking for prestige - which in this case equates to *compelling* -- or at least what is *compelling* and affordable. In general, a car makes a poor investment because it depreciates the moment you drive it out of the dealership so economically cars like Tesla (the Volt, the Leaf, or a BMW 2 series) are neither economically compelling or affordable - but if one us looking to raise one's social status image ( conspicuous consumption aka One upmanship ) - well, that's a different story -- a exotic luxury vehicle can be a socially compelling icon.

But if World War Z(ombies) ever happens - me thinks a Bradley, Hummer or a Batmobile... might be more functionally compelling vehicle.

 

He's right, my Ferrari has a much better fit and finish than my Fiat.

 

That is what happened in my case. The PIP used a minimum of 1.26ga for my daily 98 mile commute and the Volt uses a maximum of .33ga on the same route and driven faster.

PPI average over 20k miles = 62mpg
Volt average over 7k miles = 100mpg

 

First he is right. Second we should think about the question being asked.

The tesla S is a much better car than a volt or leaf. Both leaf buyers definitely want more range. Volt buyers seem quite happy, but it isn't a tesla S. It can definitely need more refinement. Both can improve in the next generation.

But.... Musk is also CEO of a company that sells pure evs. The bmw i8 likely is better for buyers than a tesla S (handles better, can do a track day, no limited range). But that i8 is going to cost more. Price is part of the equation. If the volt, prius phv, or ford energi gets it more right on the next generation, pricing will help them get market. The leaf may grow more powerfull and refined as the blue star goes down market, and the question is who can do that better.

 

It's interesting to see the best of both worlds, a balance of many priorities, depicted as a shortcoming.

 

if tesla is out of business in 5 years, no one will remember this interview.

 

Even if tesla is doing great we won't remember this interview.

If tesla is doing well in 5 years, but toyota keeps pushing the fuel cell vehicle, people will remember the fuel cell hype.

 

i don't think the average joe is seeing toyota fuel cell hype, but probably not listening to elon musk either.

 

I absolutely agree with you, BUT...as Tesla CEO he almost has to disparage the Volt and Leaf. It almost comes with the job description.

It would be like Akio Toyoda coming out and saying he really enjoys the Ford Fusion and C-Max. He's just not going to do it. So if asked to compare his Tesla to Volt or Leaf, I wouldn't expect any other response.

 

<edits in progress>

 

So I ran a series of E85 tests blended with E10 to find out if it would work as an alternate fuel. In our current Prius, they run fine at E50 levels but that does not mean it is a practical fuel. The price per gallon of E85 is about 25% higher than it should be to be a competitive fuel.

Now I also looked at natural gas. In spite of the EPA rules, it would be somewhat practical BUT it still is only marginally, competitive priced. All these reports of natural gas conversions are not fleet but experimental and my data suggests the 'rose colored glasses' can not defeat the hard economics.

But electricity is an unexpected and serious, backdoor, alternative fuel approach. It provides on a cost-per-mile, less than half the miles/$ cost of a maximum, efficiency, Prius. It is a 'game changer.'

So without touching any detailed analysis, I concur . . . plug-in is the way to go even in spite of the "hippy tax." When you see plug-in, either EV or hybrid, as the ultimate, low-cost, alternative fuel, it makes the decision of which way to go a lot easier.

Bob Wilson