Toyota working on improved Prius Plug-in as part of the next generation Prius platform

Some how I get the impression some folks bought the Prius and thought it was an EV only to be disappointed when it wasn't. I have no problem with those who want an EV getting the car that meets their requirements and thankfully now there are EV options. But I'm not sympathetic to dismissing the Prius because it was not an EV and never was and some of us think that is perfectly OK.

Go back to the original goals as shared by Satoshi Ogiso:

Source: Toyota | 2013 Toyota Hybrid World Tour - Satoshi Ogiso

Yes, I followed the efforts of CALCARS to convert Gen II into plug-in hybrids but I also realized they were just frustrated EV posers. But none of them had the good sense to rip out the gas engine, gas tank, and replace with battery packs and their own MG1/MG2 controller and battery controllers. They could have had a decent 100 mile range EV. But batteries remained the problem. Note, there was one Honda Insight owner who was ripping out the ICE and using a Prius transmission to power his home-grown Insight EV.

So it is now 2013 and we have choices:

• efficient hybrids - Prius family
• comfy, pony hybrids - Ford, Lexus, Sonata, Toyota
• hybrids with EV capability - GM, Ford, Prius
• EV - Tesla, Nissan

It is an embarrassment of riches which is why I look at some of the back-handed comments and snipping as a waste of time. Get the car you want and have a happy.

Was your last Prius not what you wanted? . . . So what! There weren't a whole lot of choices when you had to lay that money down. Get over it and work on your new ride. Find a community that has validated your choice and enjoy. Life is too short to worry about what might have been when what was available was so limited . . . back then.

Bob Wilson

 

You surely have been drinking the truth about cars kool-aide with those figures. Let me get this straight, the guy tells you a typical commute is short, then tests the plug-ins on his 120 mile a day commute that less than 1% of the public will have. Great test, and great illustration. Let's look at volt.net to see what volt drivers really do.

Volt Stats! Tracking real world usage of Chevy Volts in the wild...
The mean is 137.78 mpg total, but 35.48 mpg CS. To get gallons per year you divide distance by mpg total, not the cs figures, which would be 109 gallons of gasoline a year in a 15,000 a year vehicle. Many of these are the older 35 mile aer range, the current 38 mile range will be even more frugal. Go with the fuelly 48 mpg prius which sounds much better than that 35mpg, you get 312 gallons of gas, or about 3 times as much as in a volt

The wireless car chargers I have seen promoted are expensive and would be easy to steal from public places. I guess I just don't have the vission that my gym is going to put these in a bunch of spaces. I could definitely be wrong, but I only pay $11/month for membership (grandfathered in an old plan) and that might not even cover installation.

Well in that case sure, I just don't see my local businesses putting up the money for these. Many have put in some L2 plugs, but the local utility gave them those stations.

 

“The current Prius has held America’s fuel economy crown for many years,” said Ogiso. “In its three generations, Prius MPG has improved on average by about 10 percent, each generation. The challenge to continue to improve at this rate -- to beat your own record -- becomes very difficult, but makes it all the more motivating. We are very motivated to beat our record.”


Yes, the challenge will become more difficult.
Especially without the ability to take an external charge.

55mpg is great, but how much longer can this continue without becoming a PHEV?

The most extreme example is VW XL1, but Toyota is not going in this direction....actually the opposite.
With each generation, the Prius has become faster, roomier and yet somehow more efficient.

Obviously, there are diminishing marginal returns.
At some point, Toyota will either have to reverse course in size, weight, and power (unlikely), or they will have to make all Prii plug-ins.......there is simply no other way to stay competitive with Leaf, Volt, etc.

I'm not saying they are there yet, but they are close.
It is very well possible that Gen V won't even be offered without a plug or wireless coil.

 

	Column 1
0	[tr][th]model[th]Jul_13[th]Jun_13[th]May_13[th]Apr_13
1	[tr][td2]Toyota Prius Liftback[td2]15252[td2]14066[td2]15330[td2]12432
2	[tr][td2]Jetta Diesel[td2]4821[td2]3940[td2]3752[td2]3158
3	[tr][td2]Toyota Camry Hybrid[td2]4193[td2]3878[td2]4265[td2]3257
4	[tr][td2]Passat Diesel[td2]3997[td2]3405[td2]2797[td2]2797
5	[tr][td2]Toyota Prius C[td2]3797[td2]3442[td2]3782[td2]3486
6	[tr][td2]Toyota Prius V[td2]3428[td2]2987[td2]3732[td2]3372
7	[tr][td2]Ford Fusion Hybrid[td2]2914[td2]3057[td2]3335[td2]3625
8	[tr][td2]Ford C-Max Hybrid[td2]2267[td2]2889[td2]3261[td2]3197
9	[tr][td2]Sonata[td2]2200[td2]2129[td2]1817[td2]1447
10	[tr][td2]Nissan Leaf[td2]1864[td2]2225[td2]2138[td2]1937
11	[tr][td2]Chevrolet Volt[td2]1788[td2]2698[td2]1607[td2]1306
12	[tr][td2]Tesla Model S*[td2]1550[td2]1800[td2]2000[td2]2100

Source: April-July 2013 Hybrid Dashboard Summary | PriusChat

The top table entry is 10x the bottom table entry. Notice there are two diesels near the top and two pure EVs in the bottom part of this table. Some of these models have been on the market for long enough to be over the 'newness' bump.

Toyota doesn't have to do anything but continue their decades long, engineering practices and competing with reality. They didn't do the Prius to compete with anyone else but achieve a goal predicated by where they saw the market: urban and efficient in both mileage and volume.

Bob Wilson

 

IMO, No it isn't. Most people are driving from home to work and work to home. When they consider what car to buy this is what they think about. And the once a year 1000 mile vacation trip.

I think it is a difficult enough task to get employers to install L2 chargers. Now that we have, maybe 10,000 of these you are going to pull a switcheroo on them all and say they should dig up the parking spots as well and put in a wireless charger. Why? What extra benefit does it have for the employer? In an eight hour day the employee getting free electricity can't take the time to plug in and out?

I don't see ANY dry cleaners or gyms (I belong to 3) with L2 chargers. I've seen a handful of big stores and malls with L2 chargers. And I live in a place with a high density of chargers...just check the ChargePoint web site. The retail places installing them fall into the following category, IMO -- big national/regional chains that want the positive PR and want people to spend lots of time in their stores. Their electric bill is so large they will never notice a few kwh. Dry cleaners don't qualify. Gyms don't either -- people go there to work out and the more time spent doesn't bring in more money. As a matter of fact, places like dry cleaners don't want people taking up once of their 2 or 3 prime parking spots.

Second point.
Do you think that a wired and wireless chargers will be in the same parking space? Or will you have spot #1 with wired and spot #2 with wireless? It is hard enough to keep non-plugins out of the charging spots with an obvious charger and cable. If they are co-located one car takes up the spot for both chargers. If you think you'll have only wireless you are dismissing the 100K+ plugins already out there...and there will likely be 250K+ by the time the first wireless capable car arrives. Is a dry cleaner going to reserve 2 prime spots for EVs? No.

Third point.
How do you pay or get authorized? Sure it sounds easy and convenient. And it will be in your own garage. But let's say you have a dry cleaner with a wireless charger. You drive up and park. Is it just automatic and free? Forever ... and as long as you want to park there while you walk across the street and shop? Or does it just give you 15 minutes max of free charging? Or do you have to have a ChargePoint RFID card to authorize you? Where do you swipe the card? Is the RFID placed under the car? What if you need a Blink and and ChargePoint card? Is a new system needed that is universal? Of course all these things can be worked out...but they have to be in place when the first car is shipped else the car needs an update to get them "in the system." None of these things are deal killers...but they are all deal delayers. My bet is that if wireless charging is available from Toyota it will only be via a system you install at home.

Mike

 

I guess you want David Copperfield to be in charge of R&D. Or better yet be the CFO.

Mike

 

Ahh, yes..........but what will the table look like in Apr May June July of 2023?
That is what the speculation about Gen IV and V are all about.

And how will Toyota achieve the 'urban and efficient' and will whatever this is be more cost-effective and appealing to consumers than whatever Volt/Leaf/Tesla are up to at that time?

This is the point of speculation.
It is possible that Gen V and beyond will still not have a plug, and this may be OK for the vast majority of the public who are new to hybrids.
So, sales will be stellar for years to come, I'm sure few would doubt that.

But the question is, is Toyota still the technological leader? It will be an important question (for 2023).

The reason is that whoever is the technological leader will be in the position to offer the desired solution (lowest cost-per-mile) to the consumer at an unbeatable price.

We don't yet (as of 2013) know who that will be.

Toyota could continue their disdain for the plug........future Priii may very well sport advanced diesel and carbon-fiber designs that ensure mileage gains continue, plug or not.
But those things come with a cost as well.

Imagine competing against a cheaper, roomier Volt, a LEAF backed up by hundreds of Chademo stations and with a solid 100-200 miles, or a Tesla 3-series-type car with quick battery swap (not to mention free supercharge) capability.

At that point, can we honestly say Toyota is #1? Sales wise yes, but that's like being #1 in VCR sales in 1992, a very temporary title.
If the consumer can get more mpg bang for the buck by going the bigger battery route as opposed to diesel/lightweight or whatever non-plug tech Toyota can think of, they risk being an also-ran in the growing green car market.

 

Umm......there is no 'switcheroo'
If a parking spot has a L2 in front of it, it is not too difficult to extend it a few feet to get wireless added.
Employer spots are different, because the car is parked for 8 hours or so.
Obviously, a corded charger is fine in that case.
And the benefit to the employer is that it gives their employees a fringe benefit of working there. It's no different than employers that have gyms, cafeterias or health plans for their employees.
Think about it. Employer L2-provided charging essentially doubles the range of an EV.
Now, a Leaf can commute from over 70 miles away....meaning the employee will be able to live in a community with cheaper housing. Which is the same effect on income as a pay raise.
In fact, the cost of commuting would drop so much, the main constrain would be time spent on the road, not energy costs. (And even here that's not a problem, at least in CA with the white HOV sticker)

A gym or dry cleaner would not pay for the installation or operation of an L2, wired or wireless. That would be up to a company like Aeronvironment or the local utility. Equipment and electricity sales.
The gym or dry cleaner is simply giving permission, because it adds value to their business, meaning people will be more likely to go there. They could even list their business on Google maps as "EV friendly".
These things are not designed to be money makers for the local business. They are simply giving permission for their lot to host the charger(s).
If you believe everything a business does must have a direct monetary effect, then I suppose you are against coffee shops offering free WiFi also?

Ummmm........you totally lost me here.
Yes, I believe wireless and wired chargers should be on the same spot, but the cost to put them in alternating spots is trivial.
I don't follow your logic that a wireless-enabled car charging up and denying a wired car a chance to charge is the same as a non-EV hogging a charging spot and denying an EV a chance to charge?
When an EV is occupying a spot, it doesn't matter if it's getting juice wired or wirelessly, the spot is occupied.
Perhaps you are referring to the fact that a wired EV could park in the adjacent stall and simply extend the cable over? Whereas with a wireless, you have to park in the exact stall, not one over?
Well, again the comparison to EV vs. non-EV is invalid.
If a non-EV took over an EV charging spot, the EV could park in the adjacent stall and simply move the cable over. Same difference.

Now, as far as the # of EVs out there with this technology, again you are making an invalid comparisons.

It's like saying, don't bring Blu-rays it'll make my DVD player obsolete, or don't bring DVD players, it'll make my VCR obsolete
We need to keep advancing the technology. Early adopters are well aware that whatever they have could become obsolete rapidly. That's part of the risk. Hopefully they can retrofit (there's a kit already out there that does this for LEAF, Volt).
And the wireless system will of course always be backwards compatible if any future advances make it even better.
Have you been following what's happening with Chademo? It's days are already numbered (officially dead in EU).......and yet Nissan keeps adding to the network.
By your logic, they are crazy to do so.

This is too easy.
We can definitely rule out RFID cards. Not going to work with something buried in the pavement!
The ideal solution is smartphone-enabled.
Your Android or iPhone will have an app that used GPS to guide you to charging points, or businesses that have one. It could even tell you what the going electric rate is, whether they are occupied, and if so, for how much longer (if known), and allow you to make a 'reservation'.
Once you park over the spot, short-range communication (WiFi, bluetooth) could handle the billing.
Whether it is free or fee depends on the particular equip provider / utility.
Ideally, the only thing you'd have to do is park right over it, and not even that if you have a car with 'auto-park' feature.

 

The savings are only for the car. For it to work you have to invest the money saved on the battery into the infrastructure. Which is where the hydrogen comparison comes in. Without the wireless infrastructure, you just have a short EV range PHV that has to plugged in, and that is not what buyers want right now. Perhaps in the future, but if that is what the manufacturers are planning, they better get the charging standard down before hand, or we'll have the Chamedo and frankenplug all over again.

Yes, wireless is more convient. People will pay extra for it, and they'll continue paying it every time they charge. 95% efficiency is nice, but that is on top of the losses already incurred in charging the battery.

A unplanned trip is always a hassle. Having no plug won't change that.

The chicken-and-egg is a huge issue. For it to work, it is going to need a universal standard. Without that, the cars with wireless charging are going to be limited finding chargers that work with their system. Then who is going to pay for it.

 

We may have a universal standard soon:
SAE to Reveal Standardized Wireless Charging J2954 Guidelines by End of 2012 | PluginCars.com

I'm sorry but again this sounds just like what I mentioned when I said that we here on these hybrid/EV forums have priorities that are not necessarily consistent with the average consumer out there.

I don't think he/she would go looking for wireless chargers the minute they drove home in their shiny new PHEV.
Just knowing that they are out there and the network is growing should be enough to convince people to spend $1000-$2000. Remember, they are just probably jazzed to have their first hybrid! Its getting 50% more mpg than their prior car, so the fact that they can't immediately charge wirelessly and get 25% more is not a huge issue.

It's an addd value. It's the same reason every smartphone gets a 10 megapixel camera. Surely, costs could be saved by excluding this camera? But no, it's on every phone because it's been integrated into the design. Mass production and economies of scale ensure the cost is very low the manufacturer that it would actually be more problematic to NOT add it!

How may people pay for 4wd or AWD "just in case" but never use it?
How many people pay for cargo capacity they never use or towing ability?
It seems as if it is always the fuel-saving features that have to justify their economic benefit, not anything else!

 

You're all forgetting that whilst America is an important market for Toyota, it isn't their main market. That's Japan.

And Japan no longer has loads of cheap and plentiful electricity. Therefore, plug ins or pure EVs will not happen and Toyota will concentrate on hybrids, at least for the next decade.

Shame, as the EV market needs the stability of a market leader like Toyota to kick start it.

 

The lesson they learned from G21 is an eye opener. It is not about doing what they could but rather what they should.

Toyota knew there were emission in manufacturing battery and in generating electricity. They take account of the entire life cycle, not just vehicle operation (EPA figure).

They could put a big battery in a plugin hybrid but should they if it compromises efficiency of both gas and electric fuel? Not to mention it robs interior space and raise lifecycle emission.

From reading their prior press releases, they were focusing on a small battery that can handle many recharge cycles - meaning more durability rather than more kWh (capacity). It is better for the environment but not tax credit elegitibility. Again, doing what they should rather than what they could.

PiP design was based on a smaller battery having advantage due to lower cost, less environmental impact, higher efficiency, more space, etc. The only downside was the inconvinence of multiple recharges. The wireless charger would negate that - smart move.

 

I'm all for work place L2 chargers. I've been using one for over a year.
Most of all the installed chargers are in workplaces today. Most do not show up on all the maps you can search.
Work places (plus DOE) are paying for the economies of scale in building the existing infrastructure.

I'm saying that it is unlikely for work places to install wireless.

Do you honestly think a dry cleaner really thinks that a 10 minute wireless charge is going to attract anyone? Maybe if there are two dry cleaners a block or two apart and the other one doesn't have it. But there are so few EVs now (and zero with wireless) that it isn't even on their radar.

I repeat: Other than workplaces (including government offices) the only public charging stations (99.9%) are being installed by big chain stores or malls (and a few restaurants)...places that WANT YOU TO PARK FOR HOURS. This is the only chance for a natural economic incentive to work for the next decade or so.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying that various places couldn't or shouldn't offer free stuff. Free wifi attracts people...but think about why a coffee shop would do this. Not just because you'll show up...but because you'll stay longer and drink more coffee. How does that model work for wireless charging at a dry cleaners? or a gym? IMO it doesn't work at all for the dry cleaners. If you are going to stop for just 5-10 minutes you want to stop at the quickest and closest place. For the gym...mabe it attracts you to join. But then, wouldn't a wired charged be just as good. You are going to spend an hour or two working out but you can't lift the plug from the charger to you car?

I'm saying these things (both wired and wireless chargers) are expensive to install. Whether you are an employer or retail you want to maximize their usage else why do it? My company just spent, probably $50-$100K to install 6 more chargers (in addition to 3). There was 100' of street to dig up, new electrical sub panel, trenching, wiring, concrete posts, signage, green paint outlining the spaces, etc. We have 22 plugins. We have to timeshare the spots. If each space was dual use it wouldn't make sense...better to have spaces dedicated to either wired or wireless.

We've already got all that with ChargePoint

Of course that is possible. But then it takes as much time as a wired charger...unless you want anyone to be able to charge your phone a fee just because you are within wifi distance. Hackers will love this.
I think that you want something hardwired into the car, just as secure as the key fob. The charger pings the car once a car is detected over the inductive pad. The car has to be within a few feet of the charging station. The owner pushes a button inside the car that then allows the car's ID to be sent to the charging station with sends it to the service provider for authorization (just as it does today after the RFID card is tapped.) The fee, if any, shows up on a display inside the car (manufacturers decide how to do this). You can then accept a full charge, 1 hour or perhaps just get a free 15 min or whatever the choices are for that station.

Anyway, I think we are 5-10 years away from there being a big enough mass market for this to be viable.

Mike

 

The Recargo/PlugShare and CarStations apps also tell you where stations are based on your filters (plug style). The apps is user based so hopefully whoever added the charger to the app also listed a price. I do.

 

ah, wonderful world of internet forums, where everyone knows everything.

EV's and PHEVs sell like crap because people dont want to pay the extra prices. This is making all manufacturer's lower the pricing (and them losing the money) so they can sell numbers they need to sell to get the credits. If not for EPA credits and few states like California, EVs and PHEVs would literally not exist right now.

On the other hand, Toyota sold 1.4 million hybrids in 2012 that people actually want to buy at nice prices that make them profits.

So to conclude - Toyota isnt against PHEVs or EVs... people are simply not buying them. When people start buying them, they will have plenty of models on offer. This wont happen until many things change - such as drastic lowering of price premium and installation of few million chargers world wide.

Here in Europe, manufacturers dont have to subsidize the cost of PHEVs to get the credits, so they price them realistically - and Prius PHEV is $12k more expensive. I wish they had austingreen to explain them how their batteries cost only $2k.

 

Way to state the obvious!
What we are debating is where the EV/PHEV market will be in 2023. Did you read the threads? We are discussing Gen IV and Gen V Prii, not what is going on right now.

Oh, and by the way........if in "sell like crap" you mean that Plug-in cars are whipping the pants off Hybrid sales at the same point in their introduction a decade ago, then I guess you would also call Tesla Model S sales "crap" since they only move about 2000/month?
I'm sure you knew PHEVs/EVs are outpacing hybrid sales based on time of introduction, right?
because.......ya know, people on the internet think they 'know everything'.

Exactly. Billions in stimulus money, DOE grants and a Federal tax credit of up to $7500 have nothing to do with the existence of EVs. It's only because of EPA and CARB, that EV's exist. Exactly

And how long has the Prius been on sales? The LEAF? The Volt? The Model S?
Do you see any difference? Do you see a pattern?

-SIGH-

Do we really have to go through this again???
Toyota has:
- Not offered its only EV (Rav4) outside of CA
- offered said Rav4 as one of the ONLY EVs out there without the ability to rapid charge
- disabled full Tesla motor capability of Rav4 EV
- repeatedly lobbied CA and the Feds for smaller battery size to be eligible for tax, credits, quotas
- put out the Plug-in Prius half-heartedly with the lowest AER of any PHEV
- repeatedly changed the subject to fuel cells whenever plug-ins are mentioned


and on and on.

except they are. You just aren't noticing, or are using biased criteria and/or a double standard

They already do. Because people are. Again, you haven't noticed. Apparently ppl on the internet don't know everything

Wrong. It won't happen until we make it happen. Your last two sentence are mutually contradictory. The only way the price premium comes down (and appeal goes up) is for the simultaneous deployment of public charging AND PHEVs. It's not one or the other.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. But I wouldn't mind an austingreen explanation!

 

Oh yeah, so carmakers should commit themselves to build thousands of PHEVs and EVs because they are selling so well? GM wanted to produce 60,000 Volts in 2012, but ......

 

Exactly. With number like these, Toyota should have given up on the Prius a decade ago!

​

 

Prius did not have $7,500 tax credit plus dealer discounts to move those amount.

Prius sales exploded after gen2 redesign/improvements and $3,150 tax credit that started in 2006 and phased out in 2007-08.

 

$3150 approximately covers the cost of going from non-hybrid to hybrid.
$7500 covers the incremental cost of battery capacity in going from HEV->PHEV.

So, there really is no difference in this regard, and marginal difference when taken as a % of new car price, discounting inflation.

Gen 2 Volt re-design is likely going to be a hit. 1st gen models are usually shakedown models to get the tech going.....2nd gen is where the tech is usually taken to whole new level.

compare 1st gen Fusion Hybrid with Energi
Tesla Roadster to Model S
1st gen Honda Insight to 2nd gen
and so on

So, things should really start to get interesting around 2016, Gen II Volt vs. Gen iV Prius