Toyota working on improved Prius Plug-in as part of the next generation Prius platform

I completely agree here.
Toyota is taking a conservative approach to plug-ins.
The only reason the Prius plug-in was sized to 4 kwh was to meet the federal threshold to qualify for tax credit....earlier prototypes had a battery that was larger (5.5 kwh, IIRC) but Toyota probably concluded that the economics didn't pencil out. That may be changing now that battery prices are dropping, but we shall see.

IMHO, the real game-changer here is wireless charging.
It's easy for us here in the hybrid/EV community to fall into the trap and believe that everyone thinks like an early adopter, or wants what we want.
The fact is, these technologies only take off on a mass scale when the user interface is easy enough that everyone is comfortable using them. Smartphones were around for years before the iPhone, and we know how that turned out.
The average minivan mom is not going to be concerned with Kwh's, SOC, DOD, AER, L3, Chademo, SAE CCS, etc. or any other acronyms. What she will care about is minimizing cost-per-mile in a car that doesn't cost a whole lot more. The wireless charging allows an easy interface, no hassle of constantly having to plug it in.
If the battery capacity is 4kwh or lower, it becomes a real chore to plug in for minimal mileage gains, but not so if its wireless.

I think Toyota is thinking this through. Let others (Volt, Leaf, Tesla) push the technological envelope. They are satisfied with winning the mass market. Imagine a Sienna with a 4kwh battery and wireless charging system. Depending on the frequency of charging, the mileage gains could be impressive. Every time time you stop at the grocery store or dry cleaners, you pick up a few more miles of EV range.

They key is standardizing the wireless system (especially as Infinity is coming out with one as well on their first EV.)
Onc that is done, wireless could take over L1/L2 charging in both the home and public, leaving public L3 as the only corded option.
A massive rollout of public L2 inductive stations along with low-capacity (4kwh) plug-in hybrids will probably have the most mass-market appeal, IMHO.
4 kwh should be more than sufficient for hybrids of all sizes, given that the (non-plug) Tahoe hybrid has a 3 kwh battery.
A simple wireless charging/4kwh battery system could very well mean that standard hybrids simply give way to plug-ins. It's an added value, in much the same way that you can't get a smartphone without a high-megapixel camera, even if you don't ever use it.
The cost of adding the feature is trivial compared to the benefits of mass production and consumer convenience.

 

Toyota worked with the writers of the tax credit law to lower it from 5 kwh to 4kwh. That was in 2007 and 2008, so they were planning small batteries at least that long. The battery was not reduced during the prototype because of cost, it was because toyota could still get the California HOV access and tax credits, but a smaller battery would have the same cargo area. No evidence that by production the batteries cost more than $700, with a $417 federal credit, no one in the US was saying they would not pay that premium. Toyota was still mainly targeting japan at the time, and sales of the prius phv in Japan have been extremely disappointing.

Owner satisfaction on all the plug-ins is quite high. Bosch is already selling wireless stations. Everyone is working on it because it is fairly easy. Its not the killer app. More range seems to be the killer app. People are perfectly happy plugging in there smart phones multiple times a day even though wireless charging has been around for a long time.

No one is going after the minivan mom even with hybrids The real problem with a 4kwh battery is its too small. That is why prius owners that want plug-ins are swiching to other brands to get bigger batteries. If you already get 50 mpg, that 4.4kwh battery is only going to drop you 80 gallons a year. Are you going to pay more for the car, then pay $2000 more for wireless charging for that small gain? Prices may come down with a gen V, especially if the car parks itself over the charger putting it in optimum charging position, but for gen IV I'm expecting a bigger battery. A tesla or a leaf owner might pay extra since they use the thing every day, and if they forget to charge it might mean they don't have enough range. In a prius phv with a 4.4kwh pack it would just mean you burn an extra 1/5 of a gallon of gas, less than a 7 cent mistake, and no inconvenience.

Nissan and Tesla also have wireless charging in the lab. This is for in the garage. The dry cleaner is not going to pay to add wireless installed under the pavement. In a garage, you can close the door, so no one steals or vandalizes the expensive pad on the ground.

 

Sounds logical. But from the early Prius days Toyota was hearing the request - "why not let us plug in and get a few miles EV?" Toyota's push back on that request made sense (for Toyota) until Congress got into the Plug_in subsidy business in Bush2 admin, and later doubled down on it as part of the Obama stimulus package. That gave some significant boost to plug-in financial practicality.

 

The whole "Toyota Working on Improved Prius Plug-In" thing is a non-issue if you think about it. I mean, what manufacturer ISN'T working on improving. Last time I checked, that's how companies stay in business. I read the OP and thought, "Really? gee ... how surprising".

.

 

lol, yes the press releases are silly, but they do tell us the direction each company is going. This is included with every press release from toyota on plug-ins, and maybe they should stop if they want to sell plug ins. From the OP link

 

It is as silly is saying plug-in owners want more EV range. Of course they do, who wouldn't?

Improvement is a natural part of the process of building and selling a product.

 

Yea, like hill said duh.


I think it would be more helpful if they said how much range instead of a vague more. Its fine if they don't know yet, or don't want to say, but then its not really worthy of excitement on a press release. Why do I repeat that plug in buyers want more range than the prius phv delivers? Because there is push back that the range is perfect, and customers don't want to pay for more. When the push back stops, and posters understand what Toyota is finally confirming, then I will stop being a broken record.

The big criicism of it on my part though isn't that it is vague and obvious, lots of press releases do that, it is that they spend time talking about fuel cells in it. No one else is pushing fuel cells in their press releases about plug-ins. It makes it look like toyota is saying, here we are putting out this crap now, but what you really want to do is move to california and buy one of our new $50K+ fuel cell vehicles in 2015. It just seems insulting to some in the plug-in community, that can only hurt toyota in plug-in sales. There have been some quite negative articles recently in insideev about this.

 

BINGO!

 

Nice rewrite there. Toyota press releases had the nationwide rollout for 2013. Before the change over to the clunky interface, their website was saying June 2013.

The wireless charging option is going to put a kink into the whole 'doesn't cost a lot more' aspect. The current PPI takes a comparatively short time to charge with a level 1 charger, i.e. a wall outlet. Level 1 is plenty to charge up a Volt from when the owner gets home from work and to when he has to leave for work again. This is for no more cost than the car itself.

A level 2 charger runs from $500 to $2000 installed. A wireless charger installation is going to be at the high end or higher. Plus, it also requires extra equipment on the car for an increased price tag.

Plugging in is no more a chore than plugging in the person's phone, tablet, or laptop. With a PHV, they won't be stuck without a car if they forget to do so.

Yeah, the wireless charging linked to the plug in is probably the only new news in the release.

 

I'm not worrying about this. Everyone's eyeing the 4th gen, and I'm sure they'll deliver. Yes, when the 3rd gen was great other auto makers got off their buts and plowed forward. But no one has really matched Toyota yet. I'm certain Toyota will impress us and all question our plugins Gen III on whether we should upgrade or not.

Design wise, I think they'll be safe vs HUGE change. The Huge change will be inside and the tech. Although I'm sure the redesign will look more sporty like the Corolla refresh - just not the concepts or outerworldly different. You'll know it's a Prius and you'll know it's Gen IV. Can't wait for more spys and info

 

So, a Plug-in hybrid should only be about the ev mode and range, maximize the ev range at the expense of the efficiency of the hybrid mode, a seat, cargo space. C-Max Energi weighs as much as a Jaguar XJ?.

In hybrid mode, Volt(34 mpg), C-Max Energi(40.7 mpg) and PIP (52 mpg). Plug-in hybrids can be bad at both EV & HV.

 

Surely you are lumping the PiP in that statement are you?

 

No, in fact, PIP is probably the only good HV plug-in hybrid, others are too compromised with mpg, space, seat and weight issues.

 

Wireles charging is Loss-ie. No big deal for your Samsung S4 ... but wasting a few kWh's for each recharge, times (a theoretical) a million EV ?? You could run several cities. In a perfect world, we would have infrastructure that doesn't regularly teeter on the brink of brown outs. Not that I wouldn't like to see it happen ... but until wireless charging gets higher efficiencies (never mind the wireless units are way more expensive than your typical wired garage EVSE) it's as unrealistic as the hydrogen highway, and its very costly vehicles.
.

 

But wireless charging IS more range. I think you are making a mistake that many in the hybrid/EV community do....assuming everyone cares about EV range. They don't. They care about mpg. If they can conveniently pick up a charge for their PHEV everywhere they park, then mpg goes up. Same as having a bigger battery, but less cost and way less weight.

I'm not sure there is a straight comparison with EVs and smartphones. In a home or office, there are always outlets around, as well as standard micro-usb cables. Actually finding a charging pad would be harder for most people. With wireless EV charging, I envision it taking off due to its sheer convenience and "not having to think about it". Just park over the pad, and off you go to the gym, pharmacy, or wherever, and when you return, you've picked up a few miles. There are also no ingress/egress issues, and it helps with people who are forgetful or in a hurry.

80 gallons is assuming 4000 miles/year in EV mode. This means, you are assuming about 1 full 4.4 kwh charge/day. With the convenience of wireless, that could easily double or quadruple.
160 gallons = $640/yr saved
320 gallons = $$1280/yr saved

Yes
I like the idea of self-parking to get right over the pad.
I'm sure minivan moms will REALLy like it

Are you sure? Forgetting to plug in and burning 1/5 gallon is much more than a 7 cent mistake.........unless gasoline is 35 cents where you live!

This article says that smaller batteries and more/faster charging are the key for EV adoption. Surely the same concept hold for PHEVs!
The Long Tail Pipe: Are electric cars with small battery packs and fast charging a great combination for EV adoption?

I don't envision the dry cleaner paying, or any other business. I believe a 3rd party, like Aeronvironment or a similar company can gain a tech edge over rivals by going wireless. They would handle install and billing. It may be possible to actually have the coil located under the pavement to avoid damage/theft.

 

Efficiencies are above 85%.
Way better than hydrogen.
Is Wireless the Answer to EV Charging

Costs should come down.
Even @ $2000, high displacement of gasoline for electrons should give a 2-3 year payback.

 

We here in the plug-in community want more EV range.....the average consumer out there doesn't.
What they want is better mpg.
Which is basically the same thing in a PHEV, but we have to get into the mind frame of the mass-market consumer.

So, the question is how do we get them that extra range/mpg?
By putting bigger more expensive batteries in the car?
Or by increasing the number and convenience of public charging stations?
Wireless is a step towards the latter.

 

Is Wireless the Answer to EV Charging

It could put a kink into the cost issue.
But I envision a 'network effect'.
There are a lot of ways to get music out there, but iPhones and iPods increased demand for iTunes....and vice versa.

A widespread deployment of public wireless L2 would mean prospective car buyers would demand that feature in their PHEV...driving down costs.
Meanwhile, the more public wireless L2 chargers deployed, the more valuable it becomes.
It's similar to how Facebook, Linkedin, Skype, etc. all become more valuable the more people that use them....eventually they become the default standard in their category.

Pluggin in a car has more issues than a tab or phone.
There are ingress/egress issues, not to mention that when you plug your phone in, you get charge right away. With your car, you plug it in but charging may not start till late at night for better rates. Which means if you take an unplanned trip back out after work, you again have to plug, unplug, etc.

I agree that most people will still opt for a wired L2 for the home if they really want to save on costs. But this does not mean that they still won't demand wireless L2 capability for their car! A robust rollout of public wireless L2 means that the feature still has value for them when they are away from home running errands. And that will lower costs since they only have to pay for the wireless portion on the car itself.

I really have a hard time seeing how wired L2 chargers compete with wireless L2 in the public charging sphere, once the chicken-and-egg issue is worked out.