Volt vs. Prius C, Prius and Prius PHV

First Responder

 

"The assignment" from whom? On what time frame? People complained about the cost premium of the prius when Toyota launched it. They complained about the hybrids complexity. They said the batteries would not last. They were wrong.

Disruptive innovations often start with less than ideal products serving a smaller market. As the product matures costs drop, technical issues advance and the applicable market grows. If companies only started with something well suited to the masses at launch, we would see a lot less new technology.

The design goal for the Volt were to provide the EV drive experience, with its power and efficiency, yet with the unlimited ranged needed by most drivers all at a reasonable cost. The VOLT's MPG_CS is better than most, but not prius great. However, you don't use it too often it may not cost effective to push it a whole lot higher on the first version.

Without defining "optimal", one cannot declare anything optimal. As I said above, different people often have different priorities hence will have different definitions of optimal. Of all the cars available in 2011 I believe the volt was "optimal for me". Of the cars available today or announced for 2014, I believe it still is optimal.

The PHV may be optimal for you (and its good to see your best MPGe is nearly 100. Hopefully you can get up a bit ;-) and its a great car for many people.

And as you note the Prius C is a great balance of cost and efficiency and overall GHG production for a car -- also optimal for many but not for all.

Then again I know many for who NO car is optimal and walking, biking and mass-transit are their transport.
Many people, many criterion, yield many definitions with optimal. To each his/her own.

 

There was no TAX-CREDIT offered, back then. Now, there's a generous purchase incentive available, with the clear purpose of achieving high-volume sustainable profitable sales prior to it expiring. And knowing that each manufacturer has a specific quantity & time limit, I have to wonder why you ask again. We've been through this already.

Also, stop dancing around the difference that Toyota configured Prius to match middle-market purchase priorities (price, power, seating, etc) right from the very beginning. The owner base was quite diverse from that early start as a result. GM clearly did not take that approach. GM targeted enthusiasts instead. They are not the same.

 

I asked "again" because you once again are projecting your views as if it was what the government or the market "ordered". Nothing you said supports the supposition that there is an "assignment" that the volt needs to be middle market now. The clear purpose of the incentives was to stimulate development of batter-based vehicles and their associated technologies. Nothing in the legislation said anything about achieving high-volume sustainable profitable sales. In fact if they wanted high-volume sales they would have likely structured the incentive quite differently (e.g. giving it a short time limit to force companies to ramp faster). If they aimed at middle market the government could have limited the sale price of the car. If they were just about fuel efficiency they could have specified that. They did not. They gave credits depending on battery size with bigger batteries getting more credit. They pretty clearly indicated they wanted to invest in battery-based cars.

Toyota configured the prius to be at about the average price of vehicles sold in 2001 -- and they had deep pockets to support it. While the US goverment did not give credits, there was lots of MITI backing to invest in Toyota's development and manufacturing allowing them to loose money on the prius for years -- just a different "credit" model. I prefer the incentive model rather than the direct-investment model as the US blew it in PNGV program

In addition, you are deluding yourself if you think the initial Prius was considered matched to the middle-market, it was considered by most to be overpriced for its power, size and quality -- and you were fighting the battle against the FUD. Now you are slinging FUD. It was not until GenII that the Prius was matched to middle-market priorities.

GM was initially aiming at making it an average priced car (30K after credits). The 2011/2012 volt, after credits, was a few thousands higher than average, but there was the little unanticipated thing called a recession limiting how much GM could invest in new directions and loose on a new car. Yeah they got a bit of extra cash from folks like me that were willing to pay extra for early models -- but that may just be a good business strategy to keep profits higher when the overall auto market is struggling. The first two years it was a little higher than average, but as the economy has recovered they have brought the price down to that level. For 2014 it will start well equipped at $4K below the average vehicle price.

Though I don't have hard data, my opinion is that the GM-volt owner base is probably more diverse than the original prius owner base. People bought early priuses (upto 2007) as either early adopters for its greenness (27%) or for the other green (financial saving for those that drive a lot of miles), see this report. While the Volt uses much less gas and can be far greener (with renewable electricity), people are also buying the volt for other reasons too, such as the quality of the drive, keeping fuel$ in America, buying a great american vehicle, etc. I agree they are not the same buyers, though there is a lot of overlap and Prius->Volt transitions. However, I see no evidence the early Prius audience was more diverse, the report suggests 2 primary reasons, one of which is shared with the volt. What evidence do you have to support your statement of greater diversity?

Why don't you just stop trying to bash the Volt. Its fine that you know its not the car for you (despite never having driven one). But stop making up stuff about what you think it was supposed to be/do when you don't have supporting evidence. Sticks to the facts, please. Or if you can only state your opinion without fact, at least say "I believe" or make some other clear statement its your opinion, rather than stating it as fact.[/quote]

 

No matter how many times that supporting evidence is posted, it conveniently gets forgotten or dismissed. Notice how ineffective the resulting excuses are? Shooting the messanger doesn't accomplish anything either.

Why not just switch to focusing on goals instead?

 

Volt at a reasonable cost? How unreasonable.

DBCassidy

 

Back when Prius was first rolled out here, there was lots of arguing about need. People would claim their want was actually a necessity. Now, looking back at the SUV craze, it's easy to imagine how absurd some of the posts were.

Remembering how those enthusiasts didn't take that situation seriously, the approach was different with Volt. We instead asked what the goals were and who the buyers would be. The answers changed over time. When referring back to that past, the statements are simply denied or dismissed. They shoot the messenger too.

It's hard to believe they still don't take the situation seriously. History was allowed to repeat. Same dance, only the song has changed. Nothing was learned. Such a waste of opportunity.

So.... what's next? Do we really just blindly hope for the best? Are we truly naïve enough to not even bother specifying any requirements?

 

Probably, cross our fingers too.

DBCassidy

 

In all the item I've been here on PC I cannot recall a single bit of supporting evidence suggesting the tax credit was aimed producing instant middle-market cars. Since you are the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you to provide that evidence. If its been posted multiple times it should be easy to "cite". I provided clear logic why your assertions are wrong, with multiple citations in my message. Your original supposition, and subsequent response were both hallow. Notice how ineffective it is to try to assert something without sources. Its ironic that you consider a detailed with sources and clear logic why you are wrong are ineffective "excuses". And there was attacking the messenger, I provided data contracting your baseless opinions and then I asked you to stick to facts with citations or make it clear when you are just stating your opinion.

Oh look more negative statements without references. To which GM representative stated goals are you referring? When were they changed? (Was it because of the recession/restructuring). If it was not a GM representative, if you referring to a person at PC posting GMs goals, then answer answer was their opinion and hence liable to change as time progressed and they learned new things.

Your continued request to users here about GMs goals is pointless; we we have repeatedly said you need to ask GM what are GMs goals. If you meant switching to focusing on my goals that's easy. My goal is to stamp out vacuous FUD about the Volt. My goal here is to ensure Prius Chat readers get the facts about the Volt, not some ranting comments about misperceived past goals. I'm focusing on sharing facts and educating people. How are you helping?

This thread is about three great cars. You seem to just whine because one is not ideal by your criterion. Agreed its not your ideal car. But please either contribute to a discussion with real facts/data or move along.

 

I drove a 2013 Chevy Volt two times around the SJ Convention ctr at the Silicon Valley auto show, Jan 2013. It had EV miles remaining. The rep in passenger seat seemed attentive to hear what I thought about the car. He encouraged me to punch the gas a bit to 'see what it would do'. I did, and brisk acceleration did not invoke the gas engine. It was capable of quite a bit more pickup from a slow speed than my '11 Prius.

I made it very clear to the rep that I did not like the manually adjustable driver's seat and was told there is not a power seat option. Struck me as a HUGE oversight in a car of Volt's cost. There was inadequate leg support for me. The view inside the car was ok, not great, sort of thick A pillars as I recall. I drove nicely around the block and seemed to handle better than my Prius. It was a small looking car overall. I was only mildly interested in it before test driving and felt the same afterwards as I wasn't looking for a plug-in.

I posittively abhor sitting in Prius c. I refer to my Prius as an 'ok' car. I've never said I love the car and doubt I ever will. I do appreciate its efficiency, reliability and practicality, but my Prius liftback doesn't excite me much. After years of backroads sportbike riding, I'd like some more driving excitement in my next car, but no hurry on that.

 

Really now!

DBCassidy

 

Other recent thoughts & opinions...

Love my Volt, HATE my backseat

.

 

He's 6'4" and loves driving his Volt. Who knew?

 

One reply to thread above mentions Volt based on Cruze platform. I've looked over the Cruze: not impressed so much: tight back seat room, high door armrest, very low center armrest.

2013 Honda Civic rips the Cruze a new one. Bet many Cruze buyers here are 'be American, buy American' types.

About the Civic: Deceptively good front and rear seating and decent headroom. Looks tiny on outside, but interior room is good. ... and the driver's seat rips the Prius a new one. Skip moonroof if tall, but LX has lots of headroom.

 

Off base.

A corporation better have goals and transparency on them, especially for the stockholders. The goals, visions, market segment - are all part of strategic management.

GM should not be so "secretitive" about their goals. Wall Street, investors, bond raters, and market analysts demand this transparency!


You don't like Johns' response, too bad, go whine on the Volt forums.

What you are saying in your responses: "classical crusader syndrome"

No goals = a rudderless ship!

DBCassidy

 

It's fun to read threads like this on PriusChat then read diametrically opposed threads on GM-Volt. LOL

 

Enjoy!

DBCassidy

 

GM overcomes turmoil, sees rebirth, executive Mark Reuss says - latimes.com

 

Tesla outsells Porsche Jaguar in California; market value tops $20 billion - MSN Autos

Ahead of Volt and the Leaf.

Model S takes off!

DBCassidy