So, the Volt is just a wanna be PIP, right?

My son was visiting his family here in NY State last week, and we did discuss the connector development. He hopes it will be soon, but depends on a lot of things ANL doesn't have control over (like other countries, etc....). All I know is that they are working on finding a connector solution that will be a universal solution. We didn't discuss the EREV/PHEV/HEV stuff at all. He is working at an interesting place! Most of the time he loves his job, but it is ah, shall we say, a bit high stress most of the time.

You are right that they are very different types of cars. They are meant for a different audience and each has its place. The PiP met my needs far better than the Volt would. About 40% or more of my driving over the last few years has been right in town or nearby so the limited EV range of the PiP was not really a big issue. I needed a car that could haul some large items (like my little sound system left over from when I used to do Live Sound...) I can get it all in the PiP. Not a chance in the Volt.) Couldn't see a way to haul some 2x4x8s in the Volt either. Can get a half a dozen inside the PiP. Also have some Model Railroad portable stuff I can just get in the PiP to move. Not so with the Volt. Those things and the fact I have had a great experience with my Yaris I had for 5 years and trust the reliability of the Toyota and the dealer (Had some very, very bad problems with the local GM dealership and won't ever do business with them again!), I decided on getting the PiP as being the best match for me personally.

 

Same here. I carried out a detailed analysis in an effort to determine water a Volt, Cmax Energi or PIP was my best option. The majority of my driving is urban/suburban with most trips being less than 20 miles R/T. My lifetime fuel efficiency is 182 mpg and I am averaging 900 mpg over the last 450 miles thanks to the warmer weather.

IMO PIP's Niches:
city, small town driving routes averaging maximum of 20 to 25 miles R/T
Commuter with commute greater than about 50 miles betwen charging.

 

Pretty simple difference:
- Volt is designed to drive as an EV
- Prius is designed to drive as a hybrid

Put it this way, I believe that if Toyota engineers were to sit down and design a PHEV with a 40 mile range and full-speed EV capability they'd make many of the transmission design choices that GM engineers made with the Volt, it would be more efficient both on electricity and gas than a Volt, but it'd be noisier, be less solidly built and have worse handling. Some of the weaknesses of the Volt are because of the cheap 1.4L engine used, some because GM builds heavy cars that sacrifice efficiency for other reasons, but the drive-train engineering in the Volt was very good.

 

The cross overpoint for fuel usage between a Volt and a PiP, using EPA data, is over 100miles, not 50.

What most people don't get is how many "local" miles they rack up compared to the occasional long trip, and how much the initial battery charge changes the overall MPG. The 9MPG difference on the highway takes quite a while to make up the 17 miles of extra battery range over the PiP (or 38 compared to the Prius)

Of course many prius drivers can do better than EPA (though the average at fuelly is below EPA). So can Volt drivers.

EPA for the 2013 volt is 38miles per charge. My 2011 was 35miles per charge. May-October I get 46-55 per charge.
Getting 40miles a day of EV, is pretty easy for a decent driver in a volt.

EPA rated 40mpg on highway. When on Gas and when I drive right-lane at steady 65, I do better than EPA -- generally 45-50mpg with the occasional 60MPG ICE driving when the weather is prefect. My best 250mile trip was about 95MPG (charged at home and the destination, so about 57MPG on ICE). My only really long road trip was when I bought the car in TX, and drove it 900miles home. Obviously not broken in but we still averaged 42mpg on the ICE (44 overall as we charged it in TX and when we stayed overnight in OK).

Here is screen shot from a recent 100mile trip (one charge)


And here is relatively average ~130 mile airport run from last year (again just one charge at home) with the car packed to the gills



Coming back to the "overall" MPG, if one drives 12,000 miles a year, of which 10,000 are in EV and 2,000 are on long trips/ICEMiles, then the Volt would use approximately 50 gallons of gas for an overall 240MPG (+electricity of course). Electricity is, for many of us, much cheaper. (My fuel costs per mile over the past year are about .026/mile, which is cost equivalent to 138MPG$.)
Now that I can charge at the airport, and various public places, I'm taking less medium trips that use much gas. I expect my lifetime MPG to level out between 350 and 400MPG .


I'm not knocking the PiP, it is a solid car and for people with very short trips/commutes or with kids needing a 5th seat it can be ideal. But few driving patterns make it more fuel efficient than a Volt, so when people make an issue about the ICE fuel efficiency its generally a red herring.

Of course fuel efficiency is just one issue. If you've not done a test drive in a volt, you should then you'd know its not a prius-wanta-be of any type. Its a Tesla wanta be (Tesla is what allowed Lutz to convince GM to go for the Volt). There is a lot more to the volt than just its efficiency -- one of the reason it is so highly ranked by CR and USNews and why there volt owners that were BMW, audi and other mid-range car owners.

 

Yes but if the Volt's only 40mpg highway, but the Prius is "only" 48mpg and PiP "only" 49mpg so while the Volt uses 1 gallon (of premium, let's be fair) for every 40 miles the Prius would use 1/6 of a gallon less and the PiP 0.184 less. The Volt gets a head start on those first 38 miles of 0.79 gallons on the Prius and 0.573 on the PiP. So you don't get to break-even in gasoline consumption until comfortably over 100 miles of travel.

 

The following is from gm-volt.com

Q: How is the Chevy Volt different than other cars on the road?
A: The car is a plug-in range-extended electric vehicle with an on-board gasoline generator. It has a large battery that stores power from your home electric outlet and which is connected to an electric motor. The electric motor directly propels the car. The battery can power the car for the first 25 to 50 miles. After that, should one continue to need to drive, the on-board gasoline generator provide electricity for the motor and participate in driving the car.

 

Here's an ideal situation that would be a good fit for a Volt. You live about 30 miles from work and your employer is providing free charging stations. You charge your car at home over night and drive to work in the morning. You then charge your car at work and get a free ride home. Your cost of charging at home should be around $1.20 but you get to travel 60 miles per day on the car. Your cost per mile would be 2 cents which is much lower than an PPI.

The drawback is that the Volt cost more than the PPI, at least that was true the last time I check. I personally like the look of the Volt better than the Prius. But I'll put up with the Prius.

 

i guess even gm doesn't know their own car. sounds like par for the course.

 

gm-volt.com is not affiliated with GM.. and that part of the site is virtually unchanged since 2007 when it was posted (and before GM made it clear how it really worked). Many folks were speculating, incorrectly, about the volt's operation and performance. As is the case for many 3d party websites.. once posted its not often updated.

 

Dr. I, I seem to recall that GM later came out with info indicating that at times, depending on power demand, the on-board generator would deliver power to the traction motor via a clutch, thus mechanically providing energy to drive the car. As a Volt owner, is that your understanding?
I agree, the info quoted seemed like really old stuff that was all the buzz before the cars actually became available. But this is the same poster who in another thread was adamant that the PiP could only be charged via a wall outlet, with no regen capability. Go figure...........

 

Correct, as I already expained in this thread, the Volt can be serial (i.e. just generator) or parallel hybrid (similar to a prius motor and engine directly coupled to drive wheels). By making the switch to parallel they improved overall fuel efficiency by upto 15%.. as its more efficient to directly drive the wheels than to generate eletricity. Like the Prius when in parallel mode it can use excess power to charge the battery a bit or take power from the battery to keep the ICE in its sweet spot for RPM. But unlike the PiP Design, where the 62MPH limit is really because driving any faster would overdrive some of the electric motors, the Volt design put a much bigger EV motor in the sun gear position and allow the engine to drive the ring, or, more commonly, to be clutched out so it has no role (or wear or drag). This is a major part of what allows the full EV experience.

There is a really nice video on the Volt drive train

Don't get confused by the speeds of 30 and 70mph.. those are just examples. The volt can be in parallel mode down to at least 35mph and I've see it in parallel as high as 80mph.

I know some purists (and from Priustus ) were aghast at the idea that it was not a pure serial hybrid, but I was more impressed with GM for the design because it gives the best of both..serial when that is more efficient, parallel when that is more efficient. Now if they had only made the car a bit longer and reduced drag, and made it a bit lighter, it could do better. Just as the Lexus 200h does not get prius efficiency, there are many factors besides the drivetrain that impact MPG.

 

I helped a friend to decide on a Volt (mostly providing feedback that its been great for me and discussing leasing vs purchase). He just bought a 2013 volt with the premium package (leather, premium color, camera etc).. and with the incentives (and his GM master credit card discount), fed tax credit and Colorado State credit (6K), his net cost (including taxes) was $23,144.

(Note: I'm not just a volt pusher however, last year I talked another friend out of the volt an into a Prius-C because it was a better match to their needs, driving patterns, and was considerably cheaper.. ) Their driving pattern is very uncommon, they walk to work and only use the car on weekend and for long trips. We estimated 8K miles on long trips (as far as I can tell, they drive to random states for summer fun), 3-4K of intra-state trips > 120miles R/T and maybe 1K of local city driving. But if they could have gotten a volt for 23K net, they might have gone that route as they really like the ride quality better.)

 

From wiki

"General Motors has avoided the use of the term "hybrid" when describing its Voltec designs, even after the carmaker revealed that in some cases the combustion engine provided some assist at high speeds or to improve performance.[12] Instead General Motors describes the Volt as an electric vehicle equipped with a "range extending" gasoline powered internal combustion engine (ICE) as a genset and therefore dubbed the Volt an "Extended Range Electric Vehicle" or E-REV.[13][14] In a January 2011 interview, the Chevy Volt's Global Chief Engineer, Pamela Fletcher, referred to the Volt as "an electric car with extended range."[15]"

 

I would take a proven Gen3 Prius over a GM product any day, To sell a Volt GM gives big discounts and the Gov give you tax credits ya if you want a unproven GM product. It's like buying shoes at Kohls list $109 less 20% then less your 30% coupon now tyou only pay $49 for the shoes and you feel you got a great deal but the shoes cost them $12. The Prius is a well built proven car and with all the parts and onboard computers do you want to be a GM test case?

So here are the latest four months in sales:

Toyota Prius Liftback​

14066​

15330​

12432​

13868​

-​

​

Chevrolet Volt​

2698​

1607​

1306​

1478​

-​

​

-​

​

Source: Jeff Cobb's Hybrid Market Dashboard - HybridCars.com (well worth reading!)

So let the bragging begin:


Bob Wilson

Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/mar-jun-2013-hybrid-dashboard-report.128891/#ixzz2YAzNwUhX
Follow us: @PriusChat on Twitter | PriusChat on Facebook

 

Will the incentives from GM on the Volt they sell a 1/10 to the Prius Liftback not including the V or the C or the Plug in. before the incentives the Volt collected dust in the dealer lot. But thanks to the Government bailout and credits using my money to try to make the numbers look better but not by much.........................

 

Based on the technical descriptions, the Prius seems to be using a more complicated system than the Volt and burn more gas on daily commute of 50 miles round trip. I'm not talking about the PPI here. To me, PPI isn't a car, it's a feature that was added on top of the Prius. Even though the Volt does use the gas engine to assist in powering the wheel, but it sounded like this only happens when you press the gas pedal to the floor or when you're traveling at highway speed.

Without considering other factors, I prefer a design that is less complicated and burn less gas.

 

EV mode works differently in the PIP and the Volt.

In the PIP, even in your driveway, the gas engine may start if you need more HP than the battery can instantly deliver or if you need to burn off energy in braking. As the distance you travel lengthens, the more likely you are to use the gas engine occasionally. Eventually, it is very like a normal Prius, but with more regen down mountain passes.

In the Volt, you are wildly unlikely to invoke the gas engine in the first 30 miles. After that it still tends to use up the whole battery THEN go to gas engine.

 

Here's an article explaining why the PPI's ICE would need to kick on. Comparing to the Volt, PPI's battery and the traction motor are much smaller. No matter how Toyota spins this, the Prius or PPI is still a gas car using an electrical system to help boost the MPG.



2012 Chevrolet Volt vs. 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in - Comparison - Motor Trend