Toyota Prius 2nd Gen. - converted to LPG hybrid

regardless of type of engine the fuels are rather similar, so if it runs on gas it will run on propane, granted the caloric value is less, so you burn more for same power, I asume those polocks got all that dialed in, I still havent quite understood how they tap into the system, originaly I thought the gas/petrol injectors piggiback into theyr module so they can be shut off, therefore the engine is clueless it burns propane, I did not see anything about that in the writeup,
speaking of autogas, man I do not miss europe one bit, I called them monday, guess my phone was not working well I could hear them they could not hear me, I sent some emails, out the office easter hollyday, got a reply back from the US market rep, hes on holyday till the 4th, Wth, anywho I think they got a good product, and mostly I am interested not so much for the savings, but is a much better fuel, burns cleaner its why we use it indors, h2o and co2 thats it, the thought has been bugging me for a while thou the forklift systems are a ventury/carburator type setup, I can't see a good way to go about it in any of those modern cars, I best get back to read on those manuals before I order it

 

looking at the wire diagram it looks like the system piggybacks into the original injector wireing, it can either let it run through and the car runs as it did factory or shut it off rerouting the signal to lpg injectors, of course with the necessary adjustsments, probl 10% more to compensate for the lower caloric value, anybody else read throu this looks like the op is gone

 

As part of other discussion with Toyota customer relationship executive I received the following response.

''..our Technical Department has advised that they would strongly discourage any customer from moving away from the original manufacturer's specification of their vehicle. Furthermore it would not be possible for Toyota to provide any technical assistance towards installation of LPG or similar...''

Regards,

Customer Relations Executive
Toyota Ireland
www.toyota.ie


At present I consider to install one of the following LPG systems:

1) STAG 300 premium EUR999 (vaporised injection of lpg) Made in Poland

2) ZENIT PRO OBD EUR999 (vaporised injection of lpg) Made in Italy and designed in Poland

3) VIALLE LPI EUR1,499 (liquefied injection? - words of the installer) developed in Holland (perhaps using own technology and through various patent agreements) - Liquid Propane Injection.

 

have you heard about vialle and their's LPI (Liquid Propane Injection) it's name of the system, however they still use LPG but in the liquid form and not in vapour form. - would you pay EUR500 more for the install if it was to be ''better'' than vapour LPG (the one you use)?

 

I looked into it before, the liquid injection is a good concept from many aspects however its not as common nor applied as often, its a relative novelty, its very similar to a gasoline system with a pump in the tank and a return line pressure regulator etc, totally different animal previous attempts had issues with the pump failing prematurely, supposedly that has been figured out, there is one member here that had it installed on his 3rd gen, there is a thread on it, I'm pretty sure it's vialle, there is also Icon similar lpi setup, oddly enough its made in my neck of the woods but I can not have it, politics, they had a prius specific setup.
I have been in touch with a few uk lpg installers these folks have been doing this for a living for the past 15 years or so, it's the only feedback I can get, theyr take is pretty much unanimous, quote none of us here have been brave enough to try lpi.
the vapour systems are much more common, tried and tested, they are a variant of the old ventury suction type, most kinks have been worked out and they work just fine, that's why I chose that route, keep in mid my location I am probably the only one crazy enough plus here there are no real savings, prices are comparable. given your location, I would consider it, thou it depends what kind of warranty comes with it, and I don't usually care for warranty, but at least parts availability, I chose something tried and tested mostly because my relative lpg remote location.
as for vapour systems here is what I know:
Italians have been at it for the longest time, however the polish systems seem to be a bit more advanced lately.
for a prius , any kit would do just fine since we're only talking about 70 horse thou there are differences in the way they achieve that. question is how geeky do you want to get, the mechanics I mentioned, one recommended ESGI, other Europegas, just like Stag ( premium, not all Stag are the same ) they are fully sequential, pretty much got all the bells and whistles, most important for a prius is the controller ability to start on lpg, or very little gasoline, given the start stop nature of the hybrid, some systems will run gasoline for a minimum of 30 sec or more, in city traffic you'll be running gasoline only pretty much.
in my case DIY is the only option Europegas came highly recommended as it is most user friendly, or so I'm told.
vaporizer, any would do the job aside from couple bad quality ones, injectors, not to rag on Andrei but I was told the valktek 34 are too good for this application to the point where they may not work as well, ney are buit to run well at hotter temps, with the prius start stop they bearly reach operating temp and the engine stops, Rail, Omvl, majic jets I'm told do better for this application.
I chose to go with an Italian system, most are AEB ( the company that makes the controllers ) based , not entirely fully sequential ( it's complicated ) but just about, mostly I chose this route because the seller has been more than accommodating while I had no luck at all communicating with the polocs and they offered complete kits with all the hardware unlike megapol you pick tour own screws and zipties, plus I got it real cheap, and since propane costs me almoast as much as gasoline and the prius doesn't even burn much this is mostly a curiosity and a cleaner/domestic fuel to me.

again this is a summary of my own research, got most of my info from as reliable sources I could find, I believe that if you don't own a set of wrenches you wont know the difference regardless what system they put on it, even the worst choice you could make, if you want the latest greatest, get an lpi setup but be prepared to be the guinea pig, if you just want something reliable just about any polish(above mentioned)/italian (AEB) system just make sure its the premium OBD system, just like any product lineup they all have from basic to state of the art available. and for the prius the controller is most important, a stag 200 is not the same as a stag 300 premium obd, the premium will manage the hybrid much better, and if that's what they are selling for 1k sounds decent I guess, let me know what you end up with.

 

also Flashlube or any other valve lubrication system, there are mixed thoughts here, I'm told most Toyotas need extra valve protection and the prius is no different, than again Andrei and his buddy logged all sorts of miles without it, maybe it's the start stop nature of the hybrid running a little gas through every startup keeps valves lubricated, curious to know if most those miles are highway or city, I did not get it, yet, I was debating either maybe add some marine 2 stroke oil to my gasoline tank every tank, couldn't hurt it I don't think, or get the lube kit or chance it and if I do get 50k out of it before the valveseats go bad rebuild the head with forklift grade components and be done with it.

 

I think the liquid injection is the only way for conversion of direct injected petrol engines (without using both petrol and LPG mixture). It has something to do with petrol injectors beeing fried if there is no petrol going through them, but I don't exactly know how and where LPG is injected in this kind of install.

 

... thank you.

I have been reading about it for weeks. I have had audi 80 with lpg in the 90's... no problems there.

I am keen to go with stag 300 premium and perhaps hana 2000 injectors (majic jet's were popular in Poland, however there was some failure rate and they were hard to obtain, as they are available in Slovakia mainly)
Therefore the hana's are more widely available and I may go with them.

-the reducer is my question, the installer advised me that the same producer who makes stag 300 premium offers reducers (R01 150) and they are suitable up to >150HP.

I plan to exchange the gaskets under the manifold inlet as well.

Andrei did you have to remove the fuel injectors while removing the inlet manifold? If so, did you replace the o-rings on the fuel injectors after this procedure?

I can't say that I don't own the wrench set, I just have red medium size toolbox with five shelves made by Draper, some of my tool's are from the precision series. I like to work on my own car, however I will leave LPG installation to the certified lads due to my insurance company requirements.


thank you for the input, much appreciated.

 

no problem, I just got my manuals, for the aeb controller and I tell you a good installer is worth the trouble, like I mentioned I do not have a choice, I either do it myself or it doesnt get done, there are so many parameters to be set, and those controlers are pretty much built to fit any car so, there are options as use this if you have that, and conect to this if that, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, my ears are smoking again, lots to take in, I got to get educated so I can set it up properly.
I am starting to question myself, realisticaly I'm looking at saving $2/week, I would be a bit more motivated if petrol cost was a small fortune, curiosity will be the end of me eventualy
I ended up with rail IG 1 injectors, the kit I got came with it and they are on the cheap side I belive, I was willing to fork out extra $ for valtek 34s but I was advised otherwise, turns out the cheapies are better for this car, 34 from my understanding are a very good mid range injector, amoast as good as kheins which I'm told are among the best and the price reflects it, but when you are talking injector performance it usualy relates to a performance engine, these high standard injectors ,are built to take a beating from the demand of a 300+hp engine, they are buit to run hot and flow lots of gas, thats where the rail ones I am getting may not keep up therefore they are guarded as inferior, but the prius is far from 300 hp, I'm told 34s need 60 c to cut in rail/omvl 20celsius to cut in and would probably melt in a porche. dont know about hannas, I seen them but I don't remember beeing associated with a prius, keep in mind for injectors cheap ones aparently are better suited, except vor valtek 30s im told.
for a regulator I am gettin a tomasseto alaska, same Ideea I think it's good for about 150, I think any would do fine as for the autogas ( stag 300 manufacturer see links posted by andrei) ones I dont know, my whole thing with polish systems is that they got into it later and aparently are leading now, seems like they skiped a few steps, plus I could not get along with them to save my life, autogas started making the controlers and supplied the kits with whatever was available or whatever the sustomer wanted, from what I gathered they recently started making other components such as regulators, injectors, etc, same Ideea as the lpi, do you want to be the guy to try it?
as for the aeb system I am starting to believe its not at all inferior, its complicated but when you read the teck data it gets even more so, the odd thing couple of the fitters I have been bugging for input thou old school italian fitters through and through as one said, they recomended polish systems for me, than again all I realy know is the teck data from aeb that I am strugling to soak up, the rest is gosip.
as for the remark about the wrenches, the point was it takes a geek to now the difference, your average driver would be clueless regardless what's installed.
Here's what I can tell you for a fact, as I was reading throu the manuals tonite, the aeb controller ( apears to be fully seqvential ) has the option to start directly on gas when engine is allready warm, verry important for a prius, not sure if stag can do that, I asume it can, thou go to lpgforum.co.uk there is a thread on there about one strugling to get it to do such on a prius, bitching that his old King/aeb system did not have that issue, andrei mentiones his switches over after a certain temp, and when allready hot that means few seconds, wonder if that's the case in start stop traffic, there is usualy a minimum run time of 30 sec on petrol, on a bad traffic situation you dont even get to burn lpg.
AEB is the company that invented the first advance timing procesor for cng back in the 80's before personal computers, I wonder what the stag guys were doing at the time, likely sucking theyr thumb and craping diapers, don't take this the wrong way I think they got a good product, some would argue as best, just saying, most Italian manufacturers use AEB controlers, not all polish manufactures use stag, each have theyr own.
I dont know about the zenit, but other than brc, I want to say all italian products use aeb controlers, zavoli, romano, omvl, king, lovato there were alot more others, some make inhouse components, some just put kits together from various suppliers, there's a reason brc is the only manufacturer that dared compete.
like I said I ended up with AEB mostly because of my situation, limited options, and the guy I bumped into was more than accomodating, the prices were better ( for a minute I thought it was a cheap setup ), I could'n find a polock to take an order on the other hand. However the more I look into it I am leaning to believe its a better choice. I don't know how Andrei managed, maybe he speaks a bit of polish or rusian, I dont, I do have a contractor at work that is from poland and he'll be traveling there in a couple months, I'm definately having him bring me back some stuff.
keep me posted, I say save your penies, dont go overboard with expensive components, put that money toward a valve lube kit.

 

Thank you for all of the research and for posting these informations.

As of this morning I have left my prius for the conversion with the certified and authorized installers.

The components to be installed:
Controller: STAG 300 premium
Reducer: AS R01 - perhaps that's the weak point or maybe not
Injectors: Hana2000
Multivalve at the tank: Tomasetto
Gas Cylinder: 600mm / 200mm (height)44liters (36liters of LPG is an actual capacity in real life), this will be changed to the larger tank in future (perhaps one allowing for 55l or more of lpg, I will write about this later).
Valve lubrication kit, with the lubricant level displayed inside the vehicle to keep track of it
2 years unlimited mileage warranty
Fully registered installer certified and authorized by stag (auto-centrum Poland) AC S.A. - About us

The plan is to specifically remove the manifold intake for the drilling of the lpg injectors, this as far as I was told will take some time, thus if everything goes well I will collect the vehicle tomorrow evening. I have requested to call me when it's removed on the bench or to take several photographs.

The very same lpg installer has converted prius 2008 model for the local taxi driver.

I decided to go with stag due to own calculations, mandrei83's writeup, popularity of the system, various reviews, site language availability, it's in english, polish, german, russian and spanish. English and Polish for the technical documentation and for the support.

I'm bi-lingual (until certain point), I think I can speak English and Polish (surely I'm not perfectionist in either).
I believe it's going to be relatively easy to follow up with any future requests, in case if I need to buy parts or ask support from www.ac.com.pl.

If anyone of you is interested in doing this as DIY project (not advising) as there may be certain insurance or revenue implications in the country of your residence, therefore you should check at least with your insurance company whether or not this will affect your policy. If there is none of the above, then I suggest to educate yourselves as 2007blueprius did and then once educated you can attempt to make such diy, I would be able to help to obtain the kit or at least help with translations.

I have done my homework and I have contacted in writing my insurers and they have confirmed that there won't be any change in my premium, they have requested copies of the certifications, photographs of the installation (tank (with certification) and the engine bay showing the electrical connections).
They have taken and acknowledged my feedback that there should be a discount present for the cars with alternative fuel supply (LPG) which results in lower CO2 emmisions.

with my annual mileage (in km's) I hope to have some savings after 1st year from the installation.

Conversion at 186,848km.

In August some of my friends friend coming from Poland to Ireland and may take one HHO kit with him, so it may end-up in my Prius.

So tomorrow we will see prius with petrol-electric-lpg and perhaps in August we may see one with petrol-electric-lpg-HHO, who knows if I decide to add solar and extra battery to this car.

... dreaming! ha ha

Let's be real, I am not sure about tomorrow...

 

one question for you guys, I believe Andrei used a 34 liter tank, should measure 580mm x 180mm I believe, I did not get a tank, long story short it costs too much to ship and fillstations are few and far in between and most charge almoast same price as gasoline, I may get one at some point in time, but I did some measurements and I don't think a 600mm diameter tank will fit, please confirm for me if the 600 mm tank fit, it should be pretty snug.
as for your chosen setup I think you's do fine, the controller is rather advanced, should manage fine, the reducer should be fine too, bit new in the market but I'm sure they done theyr research, you speaking polish should be ok for ordering parts at a later date besides if it holds up for 2 years chances are it will outlive the car and so will the injectors, and with the lube kit, thats just cheap insurence for your motor,
honestly I believe the most important part is having a good installer, and I dont mean to install the parts, that part is pretty straight foreward, but mostly to properly configure the system, that part has got me riddled, particularily with the prius, the start stop nature, stag should have the option to start on directly on gas when warm, and I read something that they get wired a bit diferently than a regular car, need to make sure the power supply to the system feeds of the ready button/relay or smth like that, versus off the motor so that the system does not reset/reboot everytime the engine shuts down, also autocalibration only goes so far a good mechanic that understands fuel maping could fine tune it.
if your installer is kind ask him please if he were to use rail IG1 injectors what size nozles would he use? I read they have to be calibrated to match not only the injectors but in raport to engine size too, curious What size Andrei used, or if they are charts available to select the proper size, I'm still waiting for may packaage I hope some documentation comes with it.

 

mandrei83, the Irish laws are tricky, we better disclose it if we don't want to end up in a costly courts. As I said there wouldn't be increase in my premium (confirmed in writing).

 

I confirm I am getting 600m by 200mm (42l tank with real life of 32l (up to 80%less according to tank
manufacturer)
I was present at the time while fitting the tank into the car, so I have seen with my eyes that this tank will fit.
As soon as I finalize other arrangements I am getting 600mm by 270mm (higher) - to fit this one I would need to cut the casing of HV battery to allow for extra 2cm space which is needed to fit higher tank (this was done without any issues in one of other Prius cars in the past by other person, thus this is what I have heard from the installer) - this will not affect the battery..

If you can change your order and get as big tank as you can.
If you are willing to wait until Sunday, I will post detailed pictures of my installation.

 

oh just a thought save your money for something else, hho is a hoax, maybe unvoluntarily and some people really believe in it but it defies some laws of fizics, you cant get something for nothing, a source of energy must be spent in order to propell a car, if HHo was invented by Einstein I may consider the fact it may be beyound my understanding but usualy it all sorts of hicks and roughnecks that screw with the Ideea, there is nothing scientific about it, sure it works but its not any more afficient, youre converting energy from one form to another several times at a loss thats all they do.

 

yep, I know, I just tend to think that there may be some spare energy to recoup since we waste so much of it or it remains unused, If I hook up HHO I will do it with conjunction of solar panel so at least the energy used to power HHO will comes from the sun. - I will only do it if I can get parts at lowest possible cost, if I don't get results I will remove it. (at present time it is not on my ''to do'' book)

 

you are going to have to cut the box anyway, there is only 13cm under it, I have not ordered a tank at all, I have other options where I live, but a work friend who is polish will be traveling there this summer and he usualy comes back empty handed, he said he'll bring me some stuff, tank, lube kit, some knicknacks off of megapol, the supplyer I got my stuff from does not deal on that scale, they have generic kits and they sell them by the pallet, I'll definately be hanging arround and get as much info as I can get from your install, there are small details like:
vaporiser should be installed below radiator cap,
injectors must be upright/flowing downward if at all possible.
there are directional nozles available and straws but that may be overkill.
given my situation I can't afford to orde a tank too wide thanks for the feedback