Crazy Volt incentives makes me want to trade

His statement is his view, and not moot. (Not even clear who you mean by "His", but that is typical, lack of clarity with unsupported attacks. )

Despite your constant attacks on the Volt and harping about MPG rather than EV Range, your MPG is well below the Voltstats average. Guess what, the Volt is not just EV range but, as the designers intended, the EV range translates to overall MPG boost even with a mild 40MPG highway. And its hard to put a price on quality and fun, just as the many who buy cars for something other than fuel economy. They are not wrong, and their points are not moot, they just place different emphasis on different elements of performance. There are some people for which the PHV is the ideal car, but that is does not make other's views/needs "moot".

What we knew in 2009 was incomplete but the volt delivered in 2010 was still a radical leap forward. Sure it missed the price mark but the quality more than makes up for that. The Gen 1 Prius also lost money and was a gamble. The gen 2 prius was heavily modifed to reach cost/profit goals and yet it oo was still the prius, and and was actually better in most ways.

I agree the Prius/Lexus lines will continue to be enhanced and eventually they may even catch up to the Volt in efficency and quality/price (especially if the next generation volt goes cheaper to improve profits). Toyota had a massive lead in hybrids but appear to decided to sit and wait raking in the profits. They lost their long-term vision. Now they have some catchup to do. (And if the "cost" of the battery was the concern they could have/should have launched a larger batter EREV in the Lexus line and I would probably be driving that. )

 

Who is the market for Volt?

That question is very much still the most important.

Clearly, it is not the same as Prius. Toyota aims squarely at mainstream buyers, those who would otherwise purchase a Corolla or Camry. GM is not going after the same audience, which would be Malibu, Impala, and Cruze buyers. That reason is why enthusiasts just plain don't agree with someone like me, who is a supporter of middle-market.

Ask yourself who "most people" is. It's really unfortunate that profitable high-volume sales continue to be disregarded. MPG isn't the highest priority. Overall production is vital.

 

If you recharge twice a day, my calculation shows $506 for Volt and $593 for PiP. Charge once a day like you do now, $683 for Volt and $620 for PiP. The difference isn't twice.

Calculated using these you gave me:

$3.6 for regular gas
$3.9 for premium gas
$0.13 per kWh electricity (delivery charge and taxes included?)

I know you mostly do highway but you'll run into city driving situations with the gasoline. Volt is rated 35 MPG where PiP is rated 51 MPG. That cannot be overlooked.

Higher MPG (electric miles also divided by gasoline gallon) does not mean the vehicle is more efficient. It means you use less gas but more electricity.

Electricity is more efficient from vehicle operation point of view but not in term of generating it. On average of all the kWh generated in the US, it takes 3 kWh of energy to generate, transmit and distribute 1 kWh of electricity. You are throwing out two-third of the energy before you can recharge the battery.

For gasoline, you throw out 15% before pumping gas into the tank. We had in-depth discussions about this before (well-to-wheel efficiency) so I don't want to repeat it in details.

I think a lot of us can agree that driving on electricity feels good, especially when looking at big MPG numbers and using less gas. It feels even better if the upstream inefficiency is ignored.

 

Volt is 35 mpg on premium gasoline? Can it run on 87 or not recommended by the manufacturer?

Mike

 

I'm not buying the $0.13 per kwh either. This is California. I can believe that OP gets that price with a PiP. But unless he has solar, a second meter, or free electricity it is unlikely he can average that electricity cost for the Volt. For me using PG&E E9-A rate schedule (not necessarily the same utility company as OP) the Volt's cost advantage over 100 miles roundtrip with charge at both ends versus the PiP all but disappears. At tiers 3 & 4 electricity costs the same as gasoline.

Using the same numbers OP provided but $0.20 per kwh and 0.35 kwh per mile for the volt and 0.29 kwh per mile for the PiP. I get a commute cost of $5.18 for the Volt and $6.00 for the PiP. This requires the purchase of an L2 charge station to keep all of the Volt's charge time off-peak which will make up the difference and then some.

 

Don't forget, he said he can charge at work, that means half of the electricity is free.

 

But his employer is paying the dime now. In my opinion, anyone that charges should pay to charge. If they feel they should be given electricity for free then give gasoline away for free to the other employees that drive gasser vehicles to work.

Mike

 

I had my say about the Volt, and my say about GM many times, so all I want to champion now is some accuracy in terms:

Efficiency is work_out/energy_in

So while the Volt in the scenario F8L is considering uses less petrol than a Prius, it is NOT more efficient.

Along the same rant, F8L may pay less per trip to run because his employer is picking up some of the tab, but that does not make it "cost efficient." This is not one F8L writes -- I mention it as another example of writing best avoided.

 

It is free to him, but the employer consider this is part of the compensation/benefit for him. Nothing wrong with giving the employees incentives to be green.

 

EV driving is preferred, but the numbers are not that far apart. Compare Side-by-Side
Volt/Prius
Electricity/Electricity + Gasoline
Cost to Drive 25 Miles $1.05/$1.45
(Cost to drive 25 miles on a single charge)
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles 8.8 kW-hrs/3.2 kW-hrs of electricity and 0.3 gallons of gas
Volt/Prius
Premium Gas Only /Regular Gas Only
Cost to Drive 25 Miles $2.59/$1.77
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles 0.7 gallons/0.5 gallons

 

OP's commute is 98 miles, please change the comparison to 49 miles one way.

 

I thought he'll have to pay a monthly fee. F8L will have to chime with the latest development.

Free electricity boosting the gas MPG does not make it more efficient. It may feel good but not more efficient. The same goes for PiP running on 50% off gas sale, does not make it any more efficient. Using less gas <> more efficient.

The myth that F8L is falling into (I think) is the notion that electricity is more efficient to operate. So, if use more of it, my vehicle will be more efficient. That is true until you look upstream.

I think we all can agree on the fact that PiP is more efficient than Volt when running solely on gasoline (50 MPG vs. 37 MPG). PiP is also more efficient when running solely on electricity because it is designed to operate at lower speed (65 mph) -- less air drag, less rolling resistance, lighter vehicle, etc.

There is nothing wrong with preferring electricity to drive. I do too but hate the long recharge time. What's more important to me is the efficiency of both fuels (the breakdown). If increasing EV ratio decreases the efficiency of both gas and EV operation, I am against more EV range. That's me and everyone is different.

 

Using $0.20 per kWh two charges a day and EPA figures, for F8L's 98 miles round trip at 8,820 on ODO.

Volt - $672 (40 MPG highway for gas)
PiP - $627 (49 MPG highway for gas)
Prius - $661.5 (48 MPG highway for gas)

Interestingly, a regular Prius would be cheaper to operate than the Volt at that electricity rate.

 

Actually, at 49 miles each way charging at work, even including the eletricity, the Volt is still more efficient, in the work_out/energy_in sense.

Using EPA numbers, a 2013 the volt would have 38miles EV and 11 miles of highway (40MPG) using .275 gallons gas and 13.1 kWh of eletricity, for a net of 73.8 MPGe. The PiP would have 11 miles of EV and 38 miles of highway (49MPG) using .775 gallons and 3.1 kWh for a net of 56.48 MPGe. So the volt would be, overall, much more efficient.


"efficiency" also depends on where one draws the boundary of the system for energy_in.
MPGe, as above, is pump/wall to wheels. As has been discussed before, USB's arguments about electricity not being more efficient if you consider upstream only hold if one only goes to the "well", not all the way upstream to include exploration/discovery and drilling. (miles per total energy invested would be all upstream).

Similarly F8L's cost analysis is correct its more cost efficient for his "cost" but maybe not he employers.
Of course employers give all types of incentives to different employees (e.g. coffee, exercise rooms, etc..)
so the added cost for eletricty for the employeer may be a resonable investment in employee morale.

F8L's use of term "most people" was clearly referring to the people already buying a PHEV, which is are in the "middle market". In the broad sense most people don't drive hybrids let alone PHEVs. The best selling vehicles are trucks today (and in 2001). Almost every drove an ICE vehicle when the Prius came out.. not focusing on MPG but rather minimal cost and high volume was exactly the type of argument put forth against the Prius. It was the wrong argument then, just like it is now. It is really unfortunately that long term view of an innovation continues to be disregarded for short term profitability.

 

My company provides the benefit of charging for free. The charge stations are oversubscribed so some of the EV owners inquired about starting to charge for the service to encourage people to move their cars more promptly. The response from the company was that the EV electrical usage was so insignificant compared to overall electricity use that they don't want to spend any effort trying to collect $$.

 

Since these employees work for the same company, talk to them? If they don't respond well, shame them, or talk to ChargePoint, maybe you can 'claim' the station, and donate the revenue to charity or to a pool for a more stations.

Heck, manage the station for the company, make people pay you a deposit for using it, once they give it to you, move your car out of it, they can use it, once they are done, they move their car, they get their deposit back, etc.

 

I never get tired of reading these "My Dad can beat up YOUR Dad!" threads...especially when they don't start out that way.

This is a pretty crummy time to buy a new car. Tax 'refunds' are still filtering down through the economy and even though gas prices are a little soft now, gas is still too expensive to ignore fuel efficiency.

If I "got" to choose one of our two contenders? It would easily be the Volt. It's just a much better car inside, and it's a helluva lot more fun to drive. It's not a perfect car by any measure. The silly %^$#@! builders did the same thing with this car that Toyota did with the Pip, which is to say that they whacked away at the size of the fuel tank and they threw away the spare....but since both cars are hobbled by the same defects...that's a wash.
And yes. I know that if you live in an ultra-dense population area you don't need a spare tire or an adult-sized fuel tank.
The trouble is....The Volt is also about 7K more expensive than a Pip, so if I "HAD" to chose one of these cars it would almost certainly be the Pip.
I live < 10-miles from work (for now) and so the charging benefit would largely be the same. I recently got a verbal dispensation from my beloved employer to charge @ work (juuuuust in case )

Most of the incentives for the Volt are for leases, which kinda puzzles me.
If you drive enough miles to justify a Volt over a Pip...then you probably do not need to be leasing a car anyway---don't you think?
....just sayin.

F8L....keep your powder dry. You have some things working in your favor. Many of the Pip and Volt purchases that are happening these days aren't really purchases at all, they're leases. Pretty soon the market is going to start filling up with off-lease Pips and Volts, which will make them cheaper even if you stay on the new car side of the lot.
The Eco-Chic will abandon PHEVs for "reeeeeeal" EV's which are in the pipeline.
Additionally.....once the market digests all of the tax refunds, and the OEMs start thinking about the 2014 model year...I expect that incentives may get better, especially if the economy keeps spluttering along during a fifth "summer of recovery."


Meanwhile...keep the A-model Pip in good shape, and it will enjoy the usual Prius high resale value.

 

One would hope with two way charging and EV only weekend runs brings the Volt back to being most cost efficient. I just know that under these circumstances, the cost leader can go either way, PiPA or Volt.

 

Sounds like a Hummer driver complaining about employers that provide preferred parking for hybrids.