693 PiP sales Feb '13 in US, what's up?

PiP lease rate is better then Prius II lease rate here in NY.
If people lease PiP instead of Prius II, it might lead to better # at least in NY/NJ/CT area.
Perhaps lack of awareness on these deals, or even lack of training on sales staff at dealerships to notify potential buyers/leasee about deals.
Does lease get accounted as sales or different #?

 

You said it right! In US many of you have a state discount in Canada we have to pay full price.
- Prius Plug-in in Alberta is $35700
- Nissan Leaf is $38300

If I was to buy it today I would go with Nissan Leaf, it is only 2600 extra over Pirus Plug-in.

 

Bought mine PIP for $22500 after tax credit (before tax and fees).

 

When the technology is filtered to the public where you get 100 mile EV range, then 50+ mpg there after while self recharging, costs what an "average" car does and holds 4-5 people plus stuff...then I'll buy. Until then it does not make financial sense, so I'll stick with 50 mpg w/o EV that does fit the rest of the model because that does.

 

The market is quite finicky right now. We all hear comments that price should be lower and capacity higher, but that isn't realistic. It makes promoting plug-in vehicles a challenge, especially now that consumers have already been led down the greenwashing path… lots of hype that wasn't delivered.

We now find ourselves in the want verses need situation. It's a good place to be, though uncomfortable at first. Following the traditional path of advertising based on desire doesn't cut it as we change focus to emissions & efficiency being more important, though there is definitely a niche opportunity for some. As for the masses, which is the point of the shift over to electricity, won't share those priorities. Their purchases are far more practical.

We would all like to basically eliminate the importing of oil. That's not going to happen though. It's another unrealistic wish. The large capacity batteries we want are simply too expensive. What we actually need are those big enough to significantly reduce consumption but still small enough to remain competitive. After all, the market for traditional vehicles is well established. Replacing them is a monumental effort.

Toyota worked hard to strike a balance, directly addressing need while well aware of the consumer wanting more for less. You get a plug upgrade without any loss of the upper cargo area or lower HV efficiency following depletion. Over time, price & capacity will improve. But currently, we're still dealing with a market that doesn't understand plugging and place little priority on super high-efficiency vehicles. That can change rather rapidly though and Toyota is already well positioned to respond.

Long story short, there are many consumers who simply dismiss the plug-in Prius without actually knowing how it works. They just make a basic assumption, then judge without actually having facts available. That means sales will fluctuate from month to month initially. Entrenching deeper into those markets with some presence established already rather than rolling out to new ones makes sense in that case. Let's also remember how many consumers simply never buy a car that hasn't even been available for a whole year.

 

Ironically, the same argument was made about the regular Prius.

The arbitrary threshold all those years back was 100 MPG. Then the price of gas skyrocketed. Interest in Prius changed, despite not meeting their particular goals.

What if different criteria is delivered instead, like keeping a short range but being able to recharge 80% in just 10 minutes, could withstand far more cycles, and was quite a bit less expensive?

 

Being new to the Prius, I switched from wanting a Prius 5 to a Prius Plug-In Advance at the last moment. I'm sure I would have been happy driving a regular Prius. I'm thrilled with the opportunity to drive in full EV mode, back and forth to work, right NOW. Currently, I have no desire for a limited range, full electric car, regardless of the make or model. Although I have a perfect scenario for the limited EV range in the Prius Plug-In, I also have unlimited range as a hybrid, in a brand with proven, reliable technology, at a affordable price. My EV ratio is currently 54% after five weeks of ownership and will only continue to rise. When considering the Prius Plug-In, I factored the higher cost with incentives, and low EV range. My answer, why wait? My decision hasn't wavered.

 

My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - 2013 Feb Plugin Sales Discussion : Volt 1626 ; Leaf 653 claims PiP inventory was low.

Uhh.... no, almost nobody thinks the battery is too big on the Leaf. I'd have one now if it had an EPA rated range of ~150 miles.

Probably because they project sales too be too small per dealer when spread to other states and it's unclear (to me) if selling PiPs to CARB states others than CA and non-CARB states helps toward's Toyota's ZEV requirements. See My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Official Toyota RAV4 EV Thread and My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - California ZEV (CARB) requirements for reference. Having enhanced AT-PZEV vehicles like the PiP helps them meet those requirements. There's a ton of info that I haven't gone thru at Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Program.

I heard about the study but haven't had a chance to read about it.

Range anxiety during ownership period IS a legit issue w/the Leaf. I live in south SJ and am far from everything. I posted some info about my situation at My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11). If I took a job in Redwood City (about my distance limit for a job), for instance and had no way to charge at work, the round trip is dicey (at least 34.7 miles, one way) in a Leaf due to the highway speeds. Throw in heater usage which saps range, temporary capacity loss in the cold and aging of the battery after say 5 years, means the round trip may not be doable anymore, w/o charging.

If took a job in say San Mateo (41.4 miles, one way), the trip w/o charging at work will be doable only at low speeds and for a short window until the battery degrades a bit. With heater use? Forget about it.

And, no, I don't plan to move due to a car (living at a place rent free, long story) and no I don't wish to limit job choices due to a car.

Rav4 EV is looking more and more interesting to me (due to its long range) but I don't really want an SUV and the ride quality (or lack of, associated with it) and I have a few other concerns: resale value (affects cost of ownership), esp. if Toyota keeps having to slap on big incentives, whether I'd be getting a good deal (see earlier comment), long term reliability is unknown, esp. of the Tesla bits, what happens if Tesla goes under, repair costs esp. of some of the expensive bits not fit in the ICE version. Many of these would be not an issue if there were decent lease prices.

Yep, that's part of it. I'm sure that increased competition from more models w/CA HOV access being available isn't helping the PiP.

 

1. The biggest problem is the cost. The difference in price between the PIP and the Prius II is about the same as 80,000 miles of free gasoline. Most people will take the 80,000 miles of gas than get the PIP.

2. The Prius PIP Advanced at $40,000 is simply too expensive. It is competing against real Luxury cars that get nearly the same gas mileage and have much better performance - e.g. the Lexus 300H Hybrid, the Lincoln MKZ Hybrid. At $40,000, the Prius PIP Advanced is an overpriced economy car, costing more than real luxury hybrids.

3. The base PIP has significantly worse amenities than the similarly priced Prius IV. Toyota is selling you a larger but limited battery in sacrifice for a lot of nice amenities in the regular Prius. People don't want to make this sacrifice.

4. Face it. The Prius PIP is overpriced. The top-of-the line Prius and Prius PIP should never be over $30,000.

5. The Hassle of charging is real. People don't want to take the time to charge. People may not be able to charge - living in an apartment, at work, etc. Charging is a hassle.

6. EV driving takes too much focus and mental work. It is like driving stick shift when everyone including race car drivers use automatic. People simply want to drive as they normally do without having to be obsessive about mileage.

7. Smaller gas tank on the Prius PIP is a turn off. You have to fill the gas tank more often than the regular PIP particularly with the longer commuting distances these days from the city to the suburbs.

8. No spare tire on the PIP makes the PIP anxiety provoking on long trips. It doesn't have Run-Flat tires like on a BMW. Rip the tires on a trip and you are stuck for a while. People want safety. The PIP makes them fear for their safety.

9. The PIP is designed for short-distance commuters. This does not match the demographic. Most people - such as in California - are long-distance commuters.

Ways to improve the PIP and improve sales: Give it a larger gas tank. Give it a spare tire. Allow the engine to recharge the battery on trips with the wasted heat of the gas engine or the extra power generated so that you don't have to plug it in. And LOWER THE PRICE. It is not a luxury car. Be realistic about the target market who buys this. It is not for millionaires only, it is for the common folk.

 

In Virginia I estimate about $5000 sales+prop taxes on a PiP, and that is conservative, maybe $6000.
This assumes the new tax law is signed by the Gov. Subtract $1000 if he vetos. Still the worst taxes of any state I know on green cars. So if you buy in Maryland or Delaware, PiP looks good to me @ $0 sales+property tax. Even better in West Virginny @ $7500 tax credit. If our Gov. signs the VA bill, I think the Prius party in VA is over. Good bye, Prii.

PS- my calcs are based on 10-yr ownership, also VA taxes on a regular Prius HEV about $4600 w/ new taxes so that is not good either.

 

On the surface, it would seem that way. But then again, the same argument was made back when gas was $1.49 per gallon. In these early days of plug-ins, there's going to be a premium of some sort.

Have you actually done it? I certainly don't find the 30 seconds it takes after parking in the garage a big deal.

You don't have to do anything to get great efficiency. So what if the engine briefly runs.

My drive home this evening was 9 miles. I only had 6.3 miles left of EV. The result of doing nothing beyond just driving it was 131 MPG.

Quite the opposite happened for me. I'm driving an additionl 100 to 200 miles per tank.

 

Hehe,'the hassle of charging'??
I love the convenience of charging.
I love avoiding the hassle of filling the gas tank.

 

What!, y0u don't have to fill your tank on a PIP. Oh, you have a Leaf, sorry.

 

You are missing my point. The actual census data shows that only 2% of commuters...In the WORST areas...go more than 50 miles one way. Even if 5 times that many are worried that they MIGHT get a new job putting them in that group (like your personal situation)...that means most people could easily get by with a true 100 mile range EV for their commuting needs.

Mike

 

Yes plugging in to charge at work is a big hassle, especially when it is raining or snowing. It takes at least 10 or 20 seconds delaying me from getting to my desk sooner.

Oh, wait...the EV charging spaces are the closest spots and it saves me time to park and charge. And I live in sunny CA...no snow and little rain.

Driving in EV mode does take a lot of effort and special training so I would only recommend it for people with an advanced degree...maybe at least a 16 yr old with prospects of a high school education.

But you are right about the missing spare tire. I've gotten 2 flats in the last 25 years so I'm constantly worrying about it when I'm not focusing on the difficulty of EV mode.

Mike (been to the gas station once since August)

 

Problem is, the Leaf is not a 100 mile range EV, unless you want drive 50 mph at max and all the way down to turtle (dangerous), not use heat or AC, not to mention that the only way to attain the same range as the battery degrades is to keep going slower and slower.

It's risky to own (leasing might be ok) for a 30 mile (one way) commute w/o workplace charging that's mostly highway. I'd be a really bad idea for those w/that situation in very cold climates.

I AM in the supposedly worst area for commutes from that study. Unfortunately, due to my distance from most tech companies (and where I'd likely be working), the closest work place would likely be ~16 miles from home at minimum, many 20+ miles away (the longest I worked at a place in the Bay Area was ~24.5 miles away, one way) and the furthest I'd be willing to tolerate is maybe 45 miles. I once did have to commute for awhile to a job that was ~30 miles away.

As for flats, lack of spare tire is an issue. If I had a PiP or other car w/o a spare, I'd actually consider carrying one when doing long commutes as I don't like the idea of having to wait for a tow (and not being able to proceed to my destination quickly) or damaging my TPMS sensor due to slime.

I wish I were as lucky to have as few flats as you. See Prius+ - It's the Prius v that you wanted but can't have | Page 4 | PriusChat for my incomplete history from about 22 years of having a license (didn't have a car for most of college).

BTW, to respond to one of the earlier posts, the '13 Leaf is shipping. Some folks already have theirs.

 

Looks like a slugfest. The Prius Plug-In is taking a beating. Point, counter point, pro, con. My pea sized brain is being filled with negatives, propaganda. The budget battle has spread to the Prius Plug-In. Der peoples car is under attack. My six week Prius Plug-In experience is positive. I will not be deterred. I'm in for the long haul...

 

No, I don't actually. What type of EV I have is irrelevant to the point though that I find plugging in vastly more convenient than pumping gas

 

I don't think he was suggesting a LEAF. As a matter of fact, I am sure he wasn't as he specifically said "a true 100 mile range".

 

I am surprised at the sales number. This Feb should be one of the best months to buy PIP. Toyota offered $5000, ($6500 PIPA) subvention rebate with 0% financing for 60 months. With $2500 Fed Tax credit, and some state credits, dealers' big discounts on 2012 models, This makes PIP cheaper than the Model 2 Prius to many buyers...