Rear Sway Bar

Maestro has more of an understanding of how a cars suspension works than you do shovlhed. Even if he doesn't know how a pan hard bar works. no but seriously research it most race cars use this set up. And you will see the value in it when you realize why they are a good idea. if your neon uses a solid rear axle it will help you on the track.

well actually most race cars use a watts link which is essentially identical to a pan hard bar.

the only problem with shovlheds watts link theory is;

how do you expect to fit this;



Under a lowered Prius?

Also there are lots of people racing there Prius's

 

that quote was from maestro. read my post again.

having a loose front bar will only load the outside wheel. when the body rolls away from the turn, the inside wheel has less weight on it. the heavy front bar forces the body to remain flatter through the turn, and more weight is kept on the inside wheel. thats why sway bars were invented in the first place.

 

obviously, maestro knows how a panhard bar works. you however, seem to have no clue. the axle in your picture is completely different than a prius. once again, read my post. i never recommended a watts link, but it would do more than a panhard bar. the watts link does not have to be mounted just like your pic either, a good fabricator could fit one under a lowered prius. if you can't understand what i'm posting, you'd best not try modding any car. you ever been under a car?

 

What about some sort of A/B testing... did you try replacing the sway bars one at a time? Or both at once?

 

I been under a cow once but I got no idea how it works.

 

i replaced the rear first, because i hadn't yet read toyotech's post that a corolla bar would fit, and it took me a while to find one. earlier, i saw where someone (possibly f8l) had purchased a rear bar from THM, and i ordered one right up. actually had it on the wife's '05 for a month or 2 before i got my '04 back from my brother. like i said, it wanted to get loose in the rear w/ just the rear bar if i yanked the wheel hard into a turn going a little fast. i guess i drove for about 3 months w/ just the rear. but that sensation is completely gone since i installed the front bar. try it, you'll like it!!! i wouldn't waste my time telling you about it if it didn't work.

 

but i would believe your seat of the pants judgement if you said that it stank under there, and there were lots of flies.

 

shovlhed I don't deny that after you put the front rigid sway bar in your handling improved but at the same time you haven't been pulling hard enough g forces to understand why making your front sway bar stiffer and not changing your spring rate is a bad idea. and most importantly how solving body roll by making your sway bars more rigid is a bad and dangerous idea. body roll should be solved by your springs and not your sway bars because;


"Swaybars are not the dynamic equivalent of springs. A swaybar transfers load from the inside tire to the outside tire and thus reduce mechanical grip as they add spring rate. And the effect is not linear. The stiffer the bar in comparison to the springs, the greater the effect (loss of mechanical grip). To give an example of the effect, if we set our proposed STS2 car up using the target data we have assumed above using the target spring rates without any
swaybar, the car should have good balance. However, if we achieved that same target spring rate using a front swaybar, the car would tend to understeer more than if we used only springs and no swaybar. And the greater percentage of the total front spring rate the bar accounted for, the more the car would understeer. I noted as much early in the thread."http://www.eviltwinmotorsports.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Chassis-Newsletter-2011.2.pdf

Read This it will help
http://www.eviltwinmotorsports.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Chassis-Newsletter-2011.2.pdf


"However, sway bars can make an enormous improvement to how a car handles. Purists will suggest that sway bar tweaking should be the last step in a handling package that includes springs, dampers (shocks), bushes, etc."in a front-wheel drive car, fitting the sway bar to the rear keeps the cornering weight distribution on the front wheels more even, allowing them to better get their power down and so reducing power-understeer. (You fit the sway bar on the back cos it doesn’t matter much if the inside rear wheel goes light – it’s not doing a whole lot of work anyway.)
AutoSpeed - Rear Sway Bars: Improving FWD Handling

 

shovlhed
"but that sensation is completely gone since i installed the front bar. try it, you'll like it!!! i wouldn't waste my time telling you about it if it didn't work."


i'm not going to try it because its a huge waste of money to tune your sway bars before tuning your springs and dampers.

 

how is this axle different to that of a Prius other than size and leaf spings the principle is the same.

 

oh man that is one sissy looking axle compared to the one above, I must say lol.

 

"A sway bar (or anti-roll bar) is a spring connected
between the left and right side of the car,
whose role (as suggested by its name) is to
resist rolling of the suspension. The sway
bar must move freely with the suspension in
pitch - the road springs alone support the
weight of the car, and the sway bar provides
additional roll stiffness when required."
http://www.jameshakewill.com/sway-bar-rates.pdf

 

Ah... Now I understand. When do you plan on installing urs? I'm kinda waiting until I get the header since I have to unbolt the exhaust anyway.

 

At this point you might consider turning off the computer, picking up a wrench, and heading to the garage.

Springs are used to keep the corners planted when the car hits a bump. It's why there's one for each wheel; it's to control the response of a single wheel.

If springs were meant to control roll, they'd be connected across the body, say, like a bar or linkage of some sort.

If you increase spring rate sufficiently, you're going to end up with a harsh ride. This isn't just uncomfortable, it's dangerous at high speed. The entire car will be jolted when it hits a bump.

Some of the fellas at the track actually encourage softer springs and stiffer bars. This makes the car's handling more predictable.

 

"Some of the fellas at the track actually encourage softer springs and stiffer bars. This makes the car's handling more predictable."


That is fine for them but it is because they are not driving at the limit that they feel the car is predictable if you read the articles I posted you would find that the opposite is true. did you watch the video I shared that guy has a great story of personal experience that proves that sway bars have an opposite effect on handling. If it is ultimately true what you are saying. then why not take your springs off and just run sway bars. yes running sway bars can increase handling by making the car roll less but whatever you install in terms of sway bar stiffness you should take out of your springs by running softer springs this will bring the car back to neutral and wont be contributing to any mechanical loss in grip from putting on 300 lb/in sways on your car with 300 lb/in springs now you have 600 lb/in of roll resistance. Coil springs and sway bars are not independent of each other they work together in the car. Tuning is done by gradually making changes and testing those changes putting 300 lb/in sway bars on your Prius without deciding what spring you want to run and what damper for what purpose is amateur and a waist of money. For the street putting thicker sway bars on your car is fine but on a tract it is useless.

think about it when driving into a left hand corner where does all of the grip from weight transfer want to go. towards the left front tire. sway bars or properly known as stabilizer bars will try and resist this motion or stabilize it. and transfer weight to the outside wheel. a stiffer stab. bar in the rear of the car but with a smaller one up front will make the front suspension work more independently increasing grip. and the rear stab. bar will resist body roll for both the front and the back. Stiffer springs with a matched damper and stock or smaller stab. bar, will make the front of our independent front suspension more independent and thus have more grip. weight transfer in a car is not lateral or longitudinal its rotational and how fast and how much your car rotates around a corner is what determines a good suspension setup.

 

You can read articles all day long and you won't learn a thing... especially when you read articles written by other know-nothings.

Now spend a few days at the track and you'll be able to tell the difference between your d*ck and a roll bar. They got a track in Guelph? Go be a fly on the wall there for a few days, find a coach, take your own car out. That's when you'll start learning.

If you insist on reading, get a book that's been written by a credentialed driver, like a Ross Bentley or a Danny Sullivan. The Internet is full of garbage, and it seems you're going straight for it...

 

I have quoted Ross Bentley in a few of my posts here I have his book right here on my book shelf actually

 

Fixed that for you.

Ever hear about "book smart" vs. "street smart"? Sounds like you could use a little more time on the street...

 

you are right about that. I am trying to fix up my 1986 Honda Civic hatchback to use as a track car. It has a rear pan hard bar and coil shocks for the rear and no front shocks or coil springs just struts and torsion bars in the front. I plan on running no front stabilizer bar in the front or possibly a very low one to prevent the struts and torsion bars from bottoming out under high g forces, but no more than necessary. If the front torsion bars end up bottoming out I would rather install stiffer struts and a more rigid stabilizer bar in the rear suspension.