Toyota plans to sell fuel cell car by 2015

Who else is going to build the hydrogen highway? The oil companies have already backed out of building the hydrogen highway. Isn't that evident why? It should be obvious. If the oil companies can't conceive making any money on the hydrogen highway - why would you or I or the federal government want to lay out the cash it would cost to build it . We're talking trillions. If the hydrogen cars are going to miraculously going to come down in cost roll all that cost savings into infrastructure

 

It seems Nissan has joined the push for fuel cells.
Daimler Adds Nissan as Partner on Ford Fuel-Cell Project - Businessweek

I'm not sure if this announcement means that the push for fuel cells is accelerating again, or if Daimler and Ford just want to spend less money each so are looking for partners.

They definitely want more government money, and adding nissan helps them get some Japanese government money.

The Mercedes f-cell along with the honda clarity are the only fuel cell cars to try epa testing. This seems to delay f-cell changes 3 more years from 2014 to 2017. This coincides with CARB changes the ZEV rules to drop requirements in 2012-2014, and only require the fuel cell cars by 2017.

 

it is much easier and cheaper to build hydrogen network than ev network as hydrogen will have 400-500 mile range and take 5-10 minutes to refuel.

Trillions is stupid talk. You need hundreds of strategically placed fueling stations vs tens of thousands of EV charging places.

As long as they bring cost of the cars down - which is not miracle but result of heavy investment into engineering, hydrogen is looking to beat EVs right now since there is simply no battery technology coming up yet.

 

You have an underlying assumption that HSD must have gas engine and battery. That's not the case. It can have battery and fuel cell stack, natural gas combustion engine, diesel engine, etc.

Hybrid Synergy Drive is about blending two fuel sources that brings synergy as a united hybrid powertrain. FCHV-adv has the same NiMh battery from gas-electric HSD vehicles. I wouldn't be surprise if they use the same inverter and traction motor. Instead of a gas engine, it has the fuel cell stack.

I disagree with the notion that we should limit the time when plugin vehicles should plug in so we can go cheap with incremental infrastructural cost/improvement for the existing grid.

Hydrogen highway will have the refueling speed/capability like gasoline. For the EVs to refuel just as fast, we need to build new quick charging infrastructure -- ex: Tesla Supercharging network.

 

Interesting that you think we could get by with hundreds of hydrogen stations to replace the 121000+ gas stations we currently have.
(see Gas Station Statistics | Statistic Brain)
Since the range and filling speeds are similar.

Or are you talking hundreds per city?

 

Hydrogen stations can co-exist with gas stations and EV charging stations.

H2 and EV stations may reduce the number of gas stations but I don't see them being eliminated.

 

Again how is this different than what Honda is doing in the clarity or Mercedes in the F-Cell. HSD in the prius is primarily about the psd, remove that and all you have is branding. The control of a serial hybrid is absolutely straightforward. The prime thing is managing an EV and providing electrical power from the serial source to maintain some SOC.

Do you really think that using the same traction motor would be wise? How many $50K cars do you think only have 60 kw? Do you think the prius nimh is better than the battery in the Rav4 ev or the clarity? They can use the r&D they are doing for the gen IV phev. No question Toyota will look on their EV experience with the iq bev and Rav4 EV.

The new plug-in infrastructure has rejected that chargers will have a big presence at gas stations. The bulk of charging will be at home/work and near stores, restaurants, and parks. Only a very small percentage might happen at gas stations.

CARB is attempting to force gas stations to have hydrogen fuel. The station owners are currently in a lawsuit with them, as this will force them to compete with themselves and lose money on the hydrogen. The likely scenario is that CARB asks the American taxpayer to pay stations to install hydrogen pumps. They will only coexist as long as someone other than the stations pay for them.

 

The control strategies are different. Regen blending (with friction pads) can be different. Fuel cell stacks they use are different so efficiency loss at low load differs. We don't have enough information to assume either ways but the test result of a SUV speaks loud. Sure it is not the official EPA figure but they drove it in the real-world.

The point is, fuel cell vehicles are hybrids and you can expect the type of efficiency that HSD provides.

 

You mean fuel cell vehicles are electric!

 

Hyundai calls their fuel cell vehicle electric vehicle (FCEV). Toyota used to call theirs FCHV. Their recent concept car is called FCV-R.

 

+1

So you like the name better? That doesn't seem to give any real engineering difference. All these hv and plug-ins use regen blending with friction. I would say poor brake feel and needing a software bug fix on my prius braking doesn't put Toyota out front. Clarity seems to use similar strategies, so how again is calling it HSD or FCV-R any different?

You mean managing a fuel cell serial hybrid will be different than managing a prius hsd ice parallel/serial hybrid. Yes it will, which is why calling it hsd doesn't mean that Toyota has any more experience with it than Honda.

I find these real world things pretty strange. Normally you drive something in harsh conditions and then compare it to EPA on the Toyota and say Toyota does better in the real world. Or in this case you give it an easy test then compare it to the non Toyota epa and say aha Toyota is better in the real world.

Here, I'll do it for you. The prius c got 43 mpg in the real world Consumer reports testing. That is much worse than the fusion hybrid that gets an EPA 47. We all know in most conditions that prius c will get higher than the fusion, but hey it failed the real world test. That is when I bias the test. How this a Tesla S got 423 on one charge that is 142mpge. If Toyota is really much more efficient than the clarity, they probably should pop a slide out on their fuel cell that appears to be about the same efficiency.

No argument that these fuel cell cars are hydrogen fuel cell to electric motor serial hybrids with battery buffers. Now I do have a strong objection to the idea that simply using the marketing term HSD means that it will be more efficient than say a fuel cell vehicle that has been running in customers hands. Is the Honda fit ev far behind the scion iq ev? I doubt it. Fuel cells may even be more efficient than when the clarity was designed, but that doesn't mean they are more efficient at Toyota than at Honda. Let's let Toyota unleash some of these suckers in customers hands before we assume they are good enough to sell. IMHO Toyota is going to need a lot more work than they have done so far to make them commercially viable. They may create something really good in that 2020 timeframe that they are talking about with BMW. For now it seems they are just pushing on the PR blitz to try to get more government money for future development.

 

I think Toyota's fuel cell vehicles operates like Prius HSD parallel/series. At peak power demand, both fc stack and battery are used. This will allow them to downsize the fc stack. When fc stack is operating at inefficient load (or to prevent frequent on/off), it may recharge the battery (series route).

Basically, the same type of control that brings out synergy out of the two.

 

USB - parelel means that the fuel cells would be providing motive power without the electric motor. It is a classic series hybrid with a battery buffer.

Software does determine when the fuel cell run and at what rate, and when to put power into the battery or take it out. The battery since its not a plug in only acts as a buffer. The battery(ies) also runs accessories and gets power from the regen braking. This is exactly how the Honda clarity operates. A fuel cell vehicle does not need the complex control algorithms and power electronics to co-ordinate ice and motor rpm and torque. The motor simply is controlled as an EV, and the fuel cell run in an algorithm based on power required and SOC.

IMHO, and this does not go for the 2015 Toyota fuel cell, the way these will get sold is as plug-in hybrids. That lessens the requirements for hydrogen fueling stations and reduces the cost of fuel. Ford has talked about this, and now has formed a group with Mercedes and Nissan to get a vehicle out in a little less than 5 years.

 

You are confused.

FC -> Battery -> Motor is series.

FC+Battery -> Motor is parallel.

You do both and you have series/parallel operation like Prius HSD. Any time the battery assists FC stack, you have parallel.

 

I am not confused, the battery is simply a buffer. The fuel cell takes hydrogen and converts it to electricity, the motor takes electricity and converts it to motive force. Its simply the definition.

If you don't make it a plug in, all the electricity in the battery had to simply come from the fuel cell. In the prius some of the power comes from the ice mechanically in parallel to the series electric path.

 

HSD with fuel cell vehicles is merely branding by Toyota. The drive train is pure electric. There isn't any PSD in the vehicle. Unless Toyota put in two traction motors connected to it. Which makes as much sense as having two ICEs hooked up with it.

Hybrid was coined for the power sources. Not the energy ones. The Prius has an electric motor and an ICE to move the car, but all it's energy comes from gasoline. All a FCV's energy comes from the hydrogen. Like irony, it has become acceptable to use the term wrong

The battery is in there because of the fuel cell's limitations. It can't ramp up energy output quickly enough for accelerating on demand. The battery provides energy while the cell comes up to 'speed'. A battery that size isn't needed for regenerative braking. The makers would ditch the battery to save weight and cost if they could.