MPG ratings for PHVs are stupid

I think the MPG rating is "critical"... More so than the MPGe rating.

Bottom line is that USING LESS GASOLINE IS A BIG DEAL. Whether the economics of sending US money overseas, or the security of energy independence, or the use of a fuel source with dwindling supplies or the reductions in pollution and GHG's, the less gasoline we use, the better...

MPGe, on the other hand can be a misleading stat as the electricity can come from various sources, and for many PHEV owners today, that electricity comes the solar panels on their house. Plus the difference between the MPGe ratings is not that significant for most of the current plugins on the market, but all are "significantly" better than ICE vehicles... Example...The 95 MPGe rating of the PIP is over 4 times better than the average ICE. 115 MPGe is only slightly better. We're splitting hairs in my opinion...

As someone who lost a brother fighting in the Middle East, I prefer the MPG rating, because using less gasoline is my most important measuring stick...

 

CO2 gram per mile (g/mi) is for GHG emission and I used it.

I did not mention fuel cost but I would use $ and cents.

MPGe is good to compare vehicle efficiency but not fuel efficiency (I would include fuel production).

Your reply did not address what you have quoted. What was your point?

 

Sorry about your brother. I hope you are driving a BEV without any gas in the vehicle.

You should be promoting 50 MPG hybrids as much because they save the most gas per buck and they don't have to plug it in. The gas saving difference is very little between the plugins.

 

You have a point. People will buy the most suitable plugin with range, interior+cargo space, price, etc.

There are more people within 11 miles commute than people doing 38 miles.

 

You just need an additional number: EV range. And it is provided underneath the MPGe number with combined total range next to it. Using EV range with MPG and MPGe you can easily figure out your individual use.

The PiP is the only misnomer for PHEVs in regards to MPGe as gasoline is combined with electricity to arrive at its MPGe number.

 

Actually I have a PHEV and with my driving patterns, I was able to reduce my gasoline consumption by 90% from my ICE.

I am just not just one exception... MANY PHEV are able to achieve these kinds of numbers.

That is where "average" numbers don't tell the whole story with PHEV's......

The EPA is rating based upon a so-called average driving pattern, but with PHEV's the EPA rating more closely resembles "worst case scenario". In an ICE (or even a hybrid) might be able to beat the EPA rating by 10 MPG, but in a PHEV, with very typical driving patterns you can beat the MPG rating by as much as 100 MPG...

Driving pattern is now more important than EPA rating for PHEV's in my opinion...

 

Actually, the average "commute" is closer to 40 miles , while the average "trip" is closer to 11 miles.

So if you can plug in every time you stop, (work, lunch, shopping etc) , an 11 mile EV range can work, but if you can't plug in every time you stop, more EV range would be beneficial...

 

You must be many of the few. I assume you have a Volt. I recognize the screen name from hybridcars.com. Per GM's OnStar data, 61% of all Volt miles are on EV and 39% on gas.

You should be promoting other plugins and hybrids that saves gas also (and practical), for your brother.

Not according to NHTS 2009 survey. What's the source of your info?

 

Using your chart, less than 20% drive 10 miles or less in a day, while 80% drive over 10 miles in a day and 60% drive over 20 miles. That makes charging availability (and cost) very important factors.

When I give advice to a friend, I don't pick one type of vehicle and promote it for all purposes, I ask my friends to analyze their driving patterns first. When they know their driving pattern, they will know which vehicle is ideal for them.

In addition to that driving pattern, I also ask them to analyze the availability of public (Free and fee-based) charging in the areas they typically will drive. That should also factor into their decision.

I also ask them to determine seating needs. Whether they need 4, 5 or even 7 seats must be factored in. Along with that I ask them to factor in if they have a 2nd vehicle and what the seating/mileage/storage capabilities are of "that" vehicle, and fit they need that capability in "all" their vehicles.

Just like families with 5 or more kids making different decisions about minivans and SUV's compared to families with 2 kids or less, potential hybrid/PHEV buyers need to make the right choice for their own situation. Choosing to buy a hybrid/PHEV or even a BEV is big decision. It is not a one-size fits all, based on average numbers decision at all. It requires thorough research....

BTW... Your ON STAR data is a little outdated...

The Volt is now up to 70% EV driving and fleet average MPG is now 130 mpg....

 

Yup. Charge it twice a day and PiP can cover ~40% (two 10 miles trips). Three times and it becomes over 55%. Majority of the trips are under 10 miles.

Also only 11% of the cars are driven between 30-40 miles per day.

Again, what was the source of your data?

As of now,there are 126 million EV miles vs 204 million total miles. That's about 62% EV and 38% Gas.

If you were looking at voltstats.net, it only has 14 million total miles -- partial skewed data.

 

But opportunity charging can shorten the life of the battery pack without aggressive cooling.

 

Actually, I promoted hybrids when they first came out and even owned one. Now I promote hybrids, PHEV's, EV's, CNG, biofuels, and anything else that uses less or no gasoline...

In switching from ICE to hybrid, I reduced my gas station visits from once a week to twice a month, and mileage from 15 MPG (I used to own an SUV) to 40 MPG. With the PHEV I reduced my gas station visits to "only when I go out of town", and my lifetime mileage is 154 MPG while driving 12,000 miles/year...

 

"IF" you have a charging option. Outside of CA, the charging options are limited. Even inside CA it is becoming an issue as PHEV's are beginning to outnumber available charging spots. Spend a little time on this forum and you can clearly see that..

Plus. Is the charging free? At $1/hour for every charge, that is the same as buying gasoline. We are already seeing many of the existing free chargers convert to pay chargers. With home charging, the cost is "significantly" less. (But...You still aren't using gas, so this is not all bad..)

I don't live in CA. I do not have a public charger anywhere near my office and my office refused to let me use a 110V outlet where I park. Only twice in the last year have I gone shopping or ate lunch at a place with public charging, and both of those charged $1/hour, so I declined....

While 11% drive 30-40 miles....

More than 50% drive more than 10 miles and less than 40 miles. (The point at which public charging becomes a requirement, to avoid using gas in a PIP)
More than 90% drive less than 90 miles per day (the point at which a standard hybrid uses less gas than Volt)

But.....

I love ALL the PHEV's...

PHEV's have taken us to "whole new level" in mileage, that was unachievable in a regular hybrid, and we get that mileage without the range limitations of a BEV.

- Hybrids took us to 40 MPG and now 50 MPG.
- PIP has now taken us to the 80-100 MPG average (and above). That is what 11 miles EV range can do.
- As you go beyond 11 miles EV range, the MPG's continue to go up. 150 MPG, 250 MPG even 1000 MPG are now possible.

I am so happy to see all the success we are already seeing with PIP, Volt and C-MAX Energi. We are truly bringing in a new era that will exponentially decrease the number of gallons of gasoline that we consume......

 

Except in winter. Or at speed.

Charge it during the day and you add to peak and shoulder load, adding to infrastructure energy and costs, precisely the fear of many anti-EV people. And then, when you aren't doing those short trips you'll not get many EV miles out of it.

And for those who really care about energy efficiency with short commutes I suggest a bicycle or e-bicycle, which will reduce energy consumption, reduce damage to the road and let you exercise without making your commute last too long. At 20mph it'd only take 30 minutes each way. As an added bonus it avoids buying a battery that you'll only get 50,000 EV miles on in the 10 years it lasts. Oh, I wish my commute were 10 miles each way. That'd be a lot less gasoline consumed.

 

John, we have been through this before. PiP has active cooling with 2 fans with conditioned air drawn from the cabin. It is not "aggressive cooling" (neither Volt) but good enough to last 10 years / 150k miles warranty with opportunity recharges.

 

I was addressing people saying MPGe is a bad tool.
You said you didn't like it because it doesn't measure upstream fuel efficiency.
My reply was to say that MPGe was never meant to. You are criticizing a hammer for not being a screwdriver.

The traditional mpg tool also doesn't measure upstream efficiencies.

As long as the tool is used to measure what it is designed for, it is a wonderful tool. If people try to use it to measure things it isn't designed to measure, it is a poor tool.
Just as a hammer makes a poor screwdriver.

 

You got 40 MPG in a hybrid? Sounds like a Honda hybrid.

How many more gallons are you now saving, annually? How many kWh of electricity did you use instead? How many hours did it take to recharge them?

 

You observed that the PiP does not automatically cool the battery while being charged, even with the fans.

The Volt does aggressivly cool the battery during charging.

 

Volt owners are facing their gas engine coming on, due to the cold as well. This is not a unique issue for PiP. If your commute is long enough, all the EV miles will be used up in PiP, even at high speed with gas engine running (EV-BOOST mode). Charge again at work and repeat.

The only nitpick I can see is for a short commute where EV miles won't be used up.

FUD. Grid will have to evolve to handle PiP. 3 hours on 120v -- 3.2kWh per charge.

If I charge it during the day, I get to charge with solar electricity. If you charge it at night, you'll likely get fossil electricity.

Why don't you do it?

I have tried a 13 miles trip (to mom house) on a bicycle in the summer. It took 3-4 hours (including time to stop by to get a drink) and my lungs were filled with smog from car exahust. I can't imagine doing that in the winter or in the rain.

With PiP, I can do the same trip in 30 mins with one charge and 0.03 gallon of gas (about two eggs).

If you have 70 miles round commute, I recommend you find another job closer to home or move near your work. Even better, telecommute.

I hope you got my drift.