To Comment on EV and Hybrid Noisemakers

The 2012 Prius with noisemaker has been out for a little over a year now. I have never even heard any type of noisemaker with the car and I've seen them stroll by in parking lots.

I noticed my Prius would sometimes startle people who are walking maybe 15 or 20 ft ahead of the car in a parking lot. That's not cool. If the little spaceship noise alerts them that something is back there, good.

If they made a loud whine to electrified cars, I'm sure public disgust would be more than enough to get rid of it.

I have also read there have been cases of increased problems between the blind and silent strolling cars (i.e. 2011 Prius). Blind people cannot see. Non-belled Prius inching along at 2 MPG are virtually silent. 'nuff said.

 

Mine, and likely others, main issue with it is that it singles out hybrids and BEVs. Reducing the noise of a car has been going on for generations of vehicles. Mostly in the cabin area, but reducing engine and road noise is the first step. So many modern ICE only cars are quite quiet. IIRC, the EU requires noise testing, and has the data to prove some of them are quieter than a Prius.

So if noise makers are really for improving safety, then apply it to all cars.

 

At the first NHTSA hearing that I attended, one of the speakers was a sound engineer and he pointed out there is a problem with background noise that he called 'the cocktail party effect.'

What happens is as the general noise in the room makes conversation harder, everyone begins speaking louder to be heard . . . this eventually leads everyone to shouting at each other which does nothing for the background noise:

Source: http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?objectId=0900006480e79548&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

Federal Register | Quiet Cars Notice of Public Meeting and Request for Comments

BTW, I'm "Mr. Wilson" in the proceedings.

Bob Wilson

 

perhaps radar that senses a pedestrian and a loud warning, 'silent car approaching'! otherwise, silence. ahhhhh...

 

Or just applies the brake to prevent a collision . . . we can get one for $10,000 for our Prius. Pay $8,000 for eye-candy and then the right to pay $2,000 for the collision avoidance system.

But I had bought and investigated keyfob technology. My thinking is over 90% of all North American cars already have keyfob receivers. It would be fairly straight forward to put a piezoelectric generator in the tip of the white canes wired to a known, broadcast keyfob keyed to identify 'the blind.' The regulation would require all keyfob receivers to detect this signal and THEN:

• a muted horn bleep standardized to identify there is a blind person in the area
• a headlight high-beam flash for the same purpose

This lets the blind know cars have been alerted to their presence. The newer cars would alert the legacy cars during the transition. The drivers would be alerted to the blind pedestrian hazard.

A similar system with a different code could be incorporated in small kid shoes, similar to the flashing LEDs that were once so popular. The idea is to alert drivers when there are pre-schoolers running around ... another hazard with greater frequency than blind pedestrians.

Bob Wilson

 

bob, i can only imagine the stony faced politicians when you present ideas that would actually save life and limb.

 

I only wish but my conscience is free and clear of any guilt. Short of running for office, I've done everything reasonable but apparently not enough. So we are about to 'run the experiment' designed by the blind and supported by enablers who should have known better.

No, I won't 'wash my hands' as I've printed off the two most recent NHTSA publications and will file a formal response after I calmly read them and make my margin notes. I may write a cover letter to send to my Congress Critters but I have no expectation that anything will change.

But when folks post nonsense here, well I am unusually prepared with facts and data in this particular subject. It obviously I won't persuade everyone but universal agreement is seldom likely to happen. Still, I can empower those with eyes and a critical mind with the facts and data.

Bob Wilson

 

Thanks, Bob! I have the greatest respect not only for your engineering and research expertise, but particularly your willingness to share what you know and even to put yourself out to help others, and I don't dismiss lightly anything you bring forward.

I told our friend why I was asking about his experiences, so he may be up for further discussion. I'll check with him and will PM you.

 

but does this really matter? we're not talking about being denied civil liberties here, for christ sakes. it's just a little noisemaker.
plus, don't we all want BEVs and HVs to eventually become the only vehicles on the road?

 

My concerns:

1. Pedestrian safety remains at risk - the best possible outcome is to make noisemaker equipped cars as deadly as today's engine noise cars that already kill 4,000 pedestrians per year. Safety is not improved and the claimed risks '2,800' injuries is not even in the same order of magnitude of cost and impact as 4,000 dead.
2. This is PriusChat - not BEVs and HVs chat.

Bob Wilson

 

1. sure, but we don't need the perfect solution now. this a decent stopgap measure and we can continue working on the bigger problems. plus, the cost and engineering simplicity of installing a noisemaker vs. the proposal you outlined above is simply night and day.
2. not sure how that's relevant here (never mind the fact that this is in the News section of the site, which deals with far more than just Prius news). my point still stands – to oppose this simply on the basis of being "singled out" is just unnecessary victimization which only makes Prius drivers seem even more smug and entitled than others already believe them to be.

 

Take two and see me in the morning:

I'm pretty sure the URL is:
http: //priuschat.com/ threads/ to-comment-on-ev-and-hybrid-noisemakers.120939/page-2

If I remember correctly, you'd mentioned something about ". . . don't we all want BEVs and HVs to eventually become the only vehicles on the road?" (Read more: To Comment on EV and Hybrid Noisemakers | Page 2 | PriusChat) I'm here for Prius content. The 'BEVs and other HVs' are interesting distractions but we spent about ~$40,000 purchasing the two Prius in our driveway. Projecting your imaginary Prius owner characteristics is a poor substitute for facts and data on this life-and-death issue but useful. Let me give an example.

January 9th a Prius was involved in a pedestrian accident near the intersection of Queen and Laning Street, Southington, CT. According to the Google news sources, a 60 year old man was crossing Queen Street to get to Laning.

Per Google Map, that intersection has 5-lanes of Queen Street, posted 40 mph, and no evidence of a pedestrian cross-walk. There are sidewalks on both sides of Queen Street but no marked or identifiable, cross-walk where the reported accident occurred. It looks like there is a motel on the North West side of Queen Street and a direct line from the hotel through the reported accident area to an eating place on the South East corner of Queen and Laning Street.

So how does a proposed noise maker that sounds under 18 mph mitigate this accident?

How would the $2,000 Toyota accident avoidance system mitigate this accident? . . . except the system also requires buying $8,000 of 'eye-candy' that has no safety effect.

You see we know Prius skeptics use imaginary insults or inaccurate claims instead of facts and data. But their ignorance, their hubris, gives us an opportunity to bring a touch of reality to the discussion. There is no guarantee they will reform but then they seldom come seeking insights and understanding ... when they start with a chip on their shoulder. Still, Prius skeptics give us many opportunities to share and post the facts and data ... 'useful idiots' comes to mind.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob, I can't believe we're arguing over this here. the section of the forum in which this discussion is taking place is called "Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News". so, yes, talking about other EVs and HVs is appropriate. I mean, seriously?

also, I have no idea what the law in CT says, but the California Vehicle Code stipulates that a crosswalk exists at every intersection unless expressly prohibited, regardless of whether it is drawn.

 

Not to worry, you are our straight man who gives us an opportunity to address the Prius, pedestrian safety, and S.841.

• S.841 is the law that the National Federation of the Blind, Automotive Council, and members of the NHTSA colluded to get it passed.
• Exceptionally weak data was presented in easily misleading statements to mandate noise makers that at best will make them just as dangerous as the cars and trucks that kill 4,000 pedestrians each year.
• The Prius, ~2/3 of all affected vehicles, is the target of this bad law.

Our country is about to engage in a great experiment, testing the hypothesis that noise makers on hybrids reduce pedestrian accidents. It will take a while for the population of noise generating vehicles and pedestrian accidents to reach a threshold where the pre and post S.841 numbers will be known to a certainty. Meanwhile, another 4,000 pedestrians will die in 2013 and my expectation is 5-10 times that number 20-40,000 injury accidents. And another set in 2014.

The Prius could have been (and remains) the perfect experiment to measure the wide-spread effect of accident avoidance systems. Instead, high-end European cars will take that honor. Sometimes, Toyota safety engineering makes me walk away shaking my head in wonder. But S.841 is not one of those cases.

Bob Wilson

 

Speaking of the VPNS. I had a lady approach me yesterday as I was walking to the parking work. "Your cars makes this very odd noise. I heard it again this morning when you were pulling in and wanted to let you know to get it checked out." I smiled and thanked her and informed her that it was a warning system for blind people so they know I'm around when in EV mode. She just gave me a confused look. It was quite comical.

I have gotten many strange looks from people in parking lots from the sound the 2012+ Prii make.

 

^^^
LOL!

I wonder if I'll eventually get the same reactions whenever I upgrade to a newer Prius or Toyota hybrid since my Gen 2 predates VPNS by MANY years.

I haven't heard Leaf owners say anything similar about their car's noises which do sound exactly like Nissan Leaf Noisemaker--truely disgusting noise | PriusChat.

A Leafer at My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - the "Woosh" noticed that the sounds resembles that of the Batmobile. It seems right, given what I hear at the 0:30 mark of

.

 

Ya know when Automobiles first started taking over cars were noisy and tended to spook horses, which led to a great deal of property damage and physical injury. This became so bad in one state (can't remember which) that they passed a short-lived law that required automobiles that spooked horses to not only turn off their engine but to cover their car with a tarp until the horses calmed down and moved on... LOL... Can you imagine?

So it's kinda ironic we're having this conversation more than a century later.