1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

My year with the Volt. Costs and Comparisons

Discussion in 'Chevrolet Volt' started by Voltdriver, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Voltdriver

    Voltdriver Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    31
    26
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
  2. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    8,245
    1,202
    0
    Location:
    NorCal
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Good job! I think I 'get' the Volt from a user standpoint - It is only a few thousand more than a Leaf, and gives 35+ miles of pure EV joy. Even though it doesn't do great MPGs in CS mode, a driver will be glad to have the generator when the EV party is over. No wonder Volt pounced Leaf in sales for 2012.
    2 to 3 cents per mile gas+electric costs? That's $500 per 10k miles savings over Prius. Doesn't make great economic sense, but potential to use a Lot less gas is there....

    I hope the traction battery is Very reliable and does not cost too much when the time comes :)
     
  3. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    2,027
    586
    65
    Location:
    CO
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    Current replacement cost for the traction battery is < $3K to the user/shop.

    Its not saving a lot of money compared to a prius, but maybe the right comparsion is a CT200h.. for which its closer in price and ride quality and there the savings are greater. gm-volt has a lot of prius+volt or prius->volt people and few think the ride/drive quality of the prius is the same.
     
  4. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I priced out leasing a Plug In Prius and a Volt and the Volt cost less per month. I am running 1.6 cents/mile for the first 10,000 miles so I am saving quite a bit of fueling costs versus a Prius as well.

    I had to drive my Prius the last couple of weeks while my son drove the Volt and my daughter was out of town. I put more gas in the Prius in two weeks than I put in the Volt since August. I don't think I'll ever get another gas guzzler. :)
     
    JMD likes this.
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Why no comparison to a plug-in Prius? Or is there a spreadsheet available, so the detail can be looked at?

    Also, there's no information about location. Climate has a significant influence on efficiency.
     
    dbcassidy likes this.
  6. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    8,245
    1,202
    0
    Location:
    NorCal
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The traction battery parts + labor replace cost through Chevrolet is less than $3,000 ? :eek:
    16kWh Li-Ion ?
     
  7. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    GMPartsDirect.com - Find a Item

    Pretty sure it is an exchange price.
     
  8. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Why compare to a another eco box like the PlugIn Prius? He already included a comparison to a Prius.

    Your right about climate though. The PlugIn Prius sucks in cold climates. You have to burn gas to get any heat.
     
    Wonder and scottf200 like this.
  9. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    2,027
    586
    65
    Location:
    CO
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Pretty sure that is just the parts cost.. they don't tend to put labor costs on their price lists, labor is by the hour).
    I know that to take out the battery, add the "tunnel enhancement was about 2 hours of labor-- at their $200 or so for labor, maybe call it $3500 with labor.
     
  10. JMD

    JMD 2012 Prius 4 Solar Roof

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    3,779
    1,282
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Excellent presentation.
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    We've seen this before, it's a dead giveaway things are going well. Excluding obvious informative data is called cherry-picking. Being vague by withholding detail is called greenwashing.

    If the report is intended to be constructive, the author will make updates accordingly.

    As for your choice to use "eco box" and "suck" labels, the attitude speaks for itself.
     
    dbcassidy likes this.
  12. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    2,027
    586
    65
    Location:
    CO
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A

    Yes the OPs volt did well, very well indeed.

    The OP did a fine job in his analysis. The report is constructive and does not need to updated just to meet your warped criterion. That he did not compare to your chosen vehicle is not greenwashing or cherry picking, its pragmatic there is no easy way to estimate PiP costs/usage without very detail per drive data, which most people don't keep for a year.

    I don't think I've ever seen you do a proper comparison of your PiP data to a Chevy Volt.. The number of posts where you've been cherry picking using single trips, cannot even be counted on fingers and toes. So by your own definitions you've been greenwashing too.
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  13. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    my apologies. I tried to use non-inflammatory words after observing your objective attitude towards the Volt and other non-Toyota/Japan manufactured models.

    maybe I should have used "blows" to describe the PiP's cold weather climate performance.

    PiP - "Gas when you drive it, electric when you don't." :)
     
  14. essaunders

    essaunders Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    195
    19
    0
    Location:
    NH
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Thanks for sharing your data!
    More plug in options and competition is a good thing. It also helps when users (and corporations) give the whole pictures (nothing worse than a dual fuel vehicle only counting one source...)
    I'm not at a full year on my LEAF yet (Jan 20), but my 2012 summary looks like about $165 spent on electrons (~24 kwh/100 miles) with no problems.
     
  15. Voltdriver

    Voltdriver Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    31
    26
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I don't think I have cherry picked data. In fact, I have been as transparent as possible. If you want to make your own comparisons, I have supplied all the data you need to make a comparison. I did 'cherry pick' if you want to use that word, the cars that I selected to compare with. When I started making this graph, way back in February of 2012, the Plug in Prius wasn't even available. I have just continued using the same data, as I am attempting to compare the efficiency of gas/gas hybrid counterparts to a mainly electrically powered vehicle. My target audience is people considering to go to electric, not people that own electric and attempting to start a war over what is better.

    However, due to the nature of a Plug in Prius, building a comparison is not easy, and I'm not going to waste my time with it. Why?

    1) I travel a majority of my day on the highway. That is above 62 MPH. That means that the Prius is going to burn gas, even when it doesnt on the Volt.
    2) I live in North Carolina. Heat is not always necessary in the winter, but it is as some points. I'd be burning gas in the Prius, even with a full limited electric range when I use heat.
    3) The Plug in prius runs the engine when you accelerate too hard, giving you another unknown.
    4) My commutes are 70 miles a day, about 35 miles each way, and with a charge at work, the Prius really can't compete for electric driving, so I see it as no better than a standard Prius for my commute.

    So, in the end, comparing the Volt to an electric that is severely compromised like the Plug in Prius is really difficult. And if I did make the comparison, you wouldn't like the result. The Plug in Prius is not much less expensive than the Volt since there is such a huge disparity in tax credits. I want to say the base Prius is about 32k, and is eligible for about 2.5k in credits. The base volt is 40k, and eligible for the full $7500. So, the Volt has a net price of 32.5k and the Prius, about 29.5k (if its even possible to get it for that price, and I doubt it is).

    So the Volt only needs to work off about 3k in price difference, and given the very small and conditional electric range of the PiP, and MY driving conditions, I suspect the Volt would pay off its premium in less than 3 years, making it a far cheaper car in the long run to own and operate. Notice I said 'my conditions'. My blog is not about the average driver. If you drive 15 miles a day, the Prius may be as good for you as the Volt is for me. But I'm not writing the blog for you.
     
    John Hatchett likes this.
  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Please provide a link. All I can find is summary info, no detail.


    Volt comparisons are scope-limited too. Someone who drives 20k annually will have significantly different results than someone only driving 12k. And why force a plug-in hybrid into an electric category anyway? Just present numbers, so people can draw their own conclusions.
     
  17. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    14,816
    2,498
    66
    Location:
    Far-North Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Might I offer a suggestion...?
    Prius owners could say, "Wow, VoltDriver, that's a great presentation. Thanks for sharing."

    Failing that, Prius owners can go buy every car they want to compare and do their own legwork.

    Failing that, STFU or I will shut you.
     
  18. Voltdriver

    Voltdriver Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    31
    26
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Exactly what detail are you looking for? On that page, I show you the number of miles I have driven in a year, the number of those miles that are gas and the number that are electric. I show you the efficiency of the car, of which you can derive how many kWh I used. What other data do you need? My commute is about 70 miles. I charge at work and at home. What other data do you need to make a comparison?

    As for the math, if you need some help:

    If you wanted to find out how many kWh I used for 20k miles, you do the following:
    20,000/100=200
    200 * 31 (the number of kWh per 100 miles)= 6,200 kWh

    What have I not provided you?

    Again, the numbers are there. I have no clue what numbers you are talking about, when I've given you everything I have.

    Provide me a specific example of data you think I am missing so that you can do a comparison.

    You can see more data on my car here:
    Volt Stats: Details for Volt #2012-11378 (@Voltdriver)
     
  19. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Voltdriver, don't bother giving john1701a the time of day. He is not interested in doing anything other than defend his ownership of a Prius/PlugIn Prius and trash talk the Volt and GM.
     
  20. Voltdriver

    Voltdriver Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    31
    26
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Well, I never mind discussing specifics. If he wants to tell me what I have missed, I will do my best to provide it.

    I provide summary data because I think having granularity in the dataset, which in the end will not change the outcome at all, is just noise.

    If this is his M.O., to hurl accusations and not provide specific requests, then my B.S. filter will be applied soon enough ;)

    The point of my blog isnt trying to say that the Volt is 'the' car for everyone. The point is to show the enormous variability with computing returns on investments in electric cars, that a blanket statement is NOT appropriate when considering electric (or what electric car to buy for that matter), and that people need to look closely at all the variables before accepting or dismissing electrics.

    I can attempt to make some very broad comparisons with his signature data. If take his driving data totals, and apply my current averages (97% electric) to my car, you would get about 2 cents per mile costs. He is getting about 5 cents per mile, using my ultra cheap electric rate and the nationwide '12 gas average of $3.60 a gallon

    Me in Volt: ~2 cents per mile (I rounded up to compensate for tiny amount of gas)
    Me in PiP: ~ 5 cents per mile

    Cost at 100k miles, assuming everything is linear:
    Volt: $2000
    PiP: $5000

    What do you know? $3000 difference. Almost the exact difference in cost between the base Volt and Prius after tax credits, and after 100k miles, the Volt is putting money in your pocket. and the Volt is now selling for 1.5-3k below list price at most dealerships now, so I wouldnt be surprised if there is NO price difference between the two cars, especially from my experience that Toyota thinks that Prius is the end all be on and asks list price (which is why I walked away from buying one 2 years ago before the Volt was available)

    At 100k miles, the Volt will have burned about 80 gallons of fuel. The prius would have burned about 1150. And through 100k miles, you are driving on mostly pure electricity in the Volt.