ATF fluid changes ARE Required.

Were you a member of Fred's TDI?

 

Only lubricant known to work? Baloney Jimbo.

Been using Redline D6 in my 07 for 4 years now. Trans is as smooth and quiet as the day I bought it new.
Many alternatives to the magical WS. Even Walmart offers one. So more Priuschat hyperbole on WS fluid and its "windings" compatibility.

I use Redline as have used there gear fluid for 20+ years. It is the best GL 4 lubricant on the market IMHO and is supported by thousands of people using this product with great results as posted on BITOG. I also have done a UOA on 25K D6 and it is in the trans fluid sticky.

Although I am a big fan of Mobil1 engine oil and use it exclusively I have tried M1 ATF in 2 other cars over the years and did not have great results. But these were in classic auto's with clutches etc. Too slippery was what I heard.
But M1 atf will work fine in the OP's car. Its just a question of it's viscosity will it affect
his mileage.

To the OP change the Inverter coolant. Thats easy too and really important to the health of the Inverter.
I use this product in the rad and Inverter coolant tank and it has stopped the aluminum corrosion in the Inverter system.


Red Line Synthetic Oil - WaterWetter® Coolant Additives - WaterWetter®

 

I doubt even Ed would say the WS is an inferior product that will lead to premature car death, or that his alternatives are much less than half the WS cost, so the argument is over some $20 every 60k miles at most.

I consider myself pretty frugal, but non OEM to save 50 cents a month ? Nah

 

	Column 1
0	[th]100C[th]40C[th]additives(*)[th]oil[tr][td]6.4 cSt[td]30.7 cSt[td]?[td]D6 ATF[tr][td]5.5 cSt[td]24.6[td]1/2(*)[td]Type WS

Source: Vendor and PdMA test
* - Both Type T-IV and WS have half the additive load of Amsoil ATF

Higher viscosities are associated with greater stirring losses. These stirring losses heat up the oil causing the viscosity decrease and the parts run warmer. In our case, the potted stators.

Measuring the temperature change between transaxle oils of different viscosities is not trivial. In effect, we would expect a cold weather, roll-down test should show a difference. But at highway speeds, the temperatures would be harder, not impossible, to quantify. Still, everyone is free to operate their cars as they wish.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

Who mentioned Amsoil?

 

Never mentioned cost. Never said WS is an inferior product. I do think Redline is a superior product which is why I'm using it.

The discussion was about poo pooing the OP's M1 ATF. The argument is you can't use anything but WS but no matter how many posters come to PC and say there using something different there's still people that say the sky is falling. I don't care what you use. I'm just saying there obviously unfounded claims are incorrect. There's already enough confusion on here about trans fluid for this car.
And its $11 a quart so no savings.

 

I tested Amsoil, Type T-IV, and Type WS. I've not found an oil analysis of Redline D6 to understand what additives it may have. Would you have an oil analysis of Redline D6?

I would be happy to update my posting.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob Do you mean a virgin sample?

 

I would prefer a virgin sample but if we know the service miles, we can use the rates from Type T-IV and Type WS to estimate the initial additive loads: 2003 Prius - Cold Weather and Transaxle

There are more samples in the "SAT2" folders associated with "Prius Technical Stuff."

http://autos.groups.yah00.com/group/toyota-prius-sat2/files/transaxle%20oil%20tests/
(FYI, substituted "00" for "oo" to disable the URL substitute.)

Bob Wilson

 

Here you go Bob. Its over in GenII Maintenance sticky section. I have virgin & 25k Redline UOA.

Transaxle Oil Analysis | Page 8 | PriusChat

 

Thanks,

This is what it initially looks like:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4
0	[th]service mi[th]100C[th]Ca[th]P[th]B[th]oil[tr][td]61	000[td]4.7 cTs[td]115[td]227[td]27[td]Type WS[tr][td]35	000[td]4.75 cTs[td]116[td]269[td]49[td]12/03/08[tr][td]40	000[td]5.81 cTs[td]10[td]666[td]261[td]12/29/10

Source: user oil analysis

• 2003 Prius - Cold Weather and Transaxle
• http://priuschat.com/attachments/march-2011-prius-uoa-jpg.30603/

The first two are so close as to be identical. However, the last one looks to be significantly different:

• Higher phosphorus and boron at lower calcium - a different mix, I've read some credible reports of boron as a lubricant additive. However, I could not replicate the boron reports in our 1.5L engine and have yet to find problem with it.
• 100C viscosity - closer to new Type WS, the 5.81 suggests it may run warmer than worn Type WS. Still it is close enough to new Type WS, 5.5 cTs, I don't see a problem with it. The claim of reduced shear-down seems credible.
• Not listed in this table, it looks like zinc, an additive, significantly increased. However, there were no other remarkable aspects.

I don't see any 'red flags' in this alternate oil. It looks like a different mix of additives but none of the 'set my hair on fire.' It looks to preserve 100C viscosity within the range of new Type WS.

Bob Wilson

 

Merry Christmas!

Bob Wilson

 

OP = Original Poster aka the First Post in the thread.

 

That's lovely Bob. And not one mention of "windings compatibility"! You made my day! Thanks!

 

Thats a question I always pose every time I hear the windings nonsense. What happens to your magical WS winding compatible fluid when the fluid is now black with heavy metal in solution. Worse a car with 150K+ miles on it and no windings failure. A very conductive brew indeed. Never get a reply and neither will you.
But don't worry about it when I first tried Redline 4 years ago I was assured my trans would blow up & 4 years later I'm still waiting for that to happen. Meanwhile the trans works like new. Its just a gearbox with a chain as far as the fluid is concerned.

And don't bother beating up your car to remove ferrous material. There's many teardowns on Youtube and Luscious Garage has a few with good shots of the stator being removed and none reveal any ferrous material clinging to the stator.

 

One concern is Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly), the dry lubricant, is also characterized as a "Semiconductor." This is different from what I would call the 'liquid smoke' of metal wear particles in oil. The smoke-like particles tend to fall out of solution as sludge which is not a bad place to be.

It is common practice to assemble engines using a moly-based, grease, so when the engine first fires, before a proper oil film forms, metal-to-metal contact is avoided. But that does not seem to be how Toyota builds our transaxles and I've seen no evidence of Moly in the Type WS or Type T-IV oils. Yet we can find Moly in some engine oils and popular motorcycle chain lubricants.

I don't remember seeing an analysis of Redline D6 before and Moly was one of the first things I looked for. The second was evidence of high copper wear . . . the problem with Amsoil and the earlier NHW11 transaxle. But none of this says Moly is a high-voltage risk.

My oil testing service also tests transformer oils. It might be interesting to coordinate having a Moly enhanced oil tested for breakdown voltage. But one test does not cover all operating conditions. Still, if it failed an initial breakdown test, no need to proceed further. . . . Testing does not eliminate all risks, just the simple ones. <grins>

The obvious point is I know of no advocates for using a Moly enhanced oil in their transaxle . . . and I have no interest in being that pioneer. My Amsoil experiment was enough to suggest caution and the value of early testing, first test at 7,000 miles, when conducting such experiments.

Bob Wilson

 

Excellent point! I thought about it myself, too. Maybe the motors have no contact with ATF? After all there is an oil pump in transaxle and the flow of oil could be directed only into the gears?

 

The stators have an AC signal which is what a demagnetizer uses. The rotors have permanent magnets but they also spin at such high velocities they fling off anything on the rim.

The oil is an important carrier of heat away from the stators and the 'Prius c' actually increases that function by design. The reduction gears are designed to 'sling-pump' oil to the top so it can flow down over the stators and take away the heat.

The measured amounts of iron in the samples have been under 100 parts per million, closer to smoke than anything else. However their higher density means they tend to collect at the lowest and flat parts of the transaxle . . . sludge. Then there is the magnetized drain plug, another ferrous attractor.

A good question, the real problem is 'smoke sized' particles increase friction and wear in bearings.

Bob Wilson