2 month anniversary energy stats for 2012 plug-in basic

You really cannot buy wind power unless you are directly connected to it off-grid. You are buying the renewable energy credits that go to wind power generators. (ENRON lives.)

 

This is incredible to see how you have tracked the numbers. I am apparently getting far lower MPG than you, but after my 24 MPG Tacoma, I'm thrilled to be saving $200 per month on gasoline.

 

EIA shows generation mix for each state. So you can reasonably ascertain how much of your supplier's electricity comes from which generation type annually. There is no way to know which power plant powers your outlets at any given moment. The grid is like a big lake which is fed its water by hundreds of streams and rivers. You draw water out of a pipe in the middle of the lake. Ideally you would have a personal windmill at your house that could charge your EV at night. Unfortunately that windmill would not pay for itself in gasoline savings for decades.

 

I will disagree with you on this.

As well as this.

Perhaps "you" cannot "really" purchase wind power, or clean energy, but please refrain from extending your situation to the general audience and educate yourself on the subject. I believe you may have lightly researched your own local situation and assumed that it is typical for everyone, which would be a bad assumption.

 

This is a tangential issue, and no need to belabor it. But there are less than a dozen major grid operators in the country, serving the vast majority of electricity customers. None of these "Independent System Operators," that I am aware, have the ability to sequester certain electrons from the pool. There are smaller local co-op type utilities that might be able to say with some certainty where the source of their delivered electricity is. Many suppliers or transmission & delivery utilities will engage in contracts with a particular generator to purchase some or all of its generation. The supplier then can seek customers like you who volunteer to "buy" the contracted electricity, but you are truly only covering their contract (or part of it). In that sense, you are engaged in a bit if a commodity trade for wind electricity, but you are getting plain old electricity. If you are on a typical grid - and most of us are - that is a dynamic mix of base load, peak load, and marginal generation coming through your wires. Not worth arguing about in this forum, but those are facts. That's simply how the grid works.

 

Then refrain from it.

 

No need to be snarky dear sir. I am new here, but have already seen posts by you where you contributed your knowledge to clarify when another poster has said something inaccurate. IMO people who want to meaningfully participate in these chats ought to welcome learning as much as teaching.

 

You led off your post with a subtle request not to converse on the topic, but then continue. was not intended to be "snarky".

Welcome to PC.

There is a pretty good thread discussing ghg and the grid, with some discussion about renewables and such at plug-in states and ghg | PriusChat

 

I'm thinking Wind Power on Long Island will be limited. You have about 7 Million people on a 100 mile Island. I'm guessing not much land for wind generation. Also the land is so expensive that making a project profitable may be difficult. The energy company may purchase elec generated from Wind from outside it's region and that is a guess.

 

In Southern Cal the Energy company SDG&E and other out of state companies are investing is Solar and Wind Generation in the Desert but California has plenty of open land and many days of sunshine and the santa ana winds.

 

John, we have gone over it before. You cannot directly claim that you are getting only the wind electricity. Here is the FAQ from Austin Energy where you signed up:

If I sign up, will my home or business receive electricity generated from renewable energy?
Yes, but not directly.

When you subscribe to GreenChoice, Austin Energy purchases green energy to meet your needs. This means less electricity is needed from natural gas or coal-fired power plants.

Austin Energy’s electric system receives green energy daily over our statewide transmission system. Once green energy enters our system, it mixes with energy produced from power generating plants.

This means the electricity generated from green sources is not directed to a specific home or business. But as more customers subscribe to GreenChoice, the amount of green power in the mix increases. This reduces the amount of energy coming from fossil-fuel based power plants.

 

It is better to use statewide or regional grid average because we are getting a mix of electricity from all sources. We'll never know the breakdown because they don't keep track of them.

To get back on topic, my 2 months stats is at 40% EV and 60% HV. About 264 Wh/mi (15% charging loss included) and about 55 MPG on gas.

 

They have actually talked about putting windmills off of the southern coast of Long Island.

 

I'm sure it will be a low output for all the prior discussed reasons. But heck we all welcome it. I would think that the Niagra Falls is a Clean energy bonanza for NY State.

I know many people may disagree, but after hurricane Sandy where lower Manhattan was under water, people can put a face on global warming and the ever raising water table.

 

I don't think I have ever claimed "directly" so please don't put words into my posts. I pay for an EV subsciption from Austin Energy that is powered 100% by renewables., mostly wind.

Plug-In Partners for Drivers

I am NOT an Austin Energy Greenchoice subscriber, which is the FAQ you reference. I think you are confusing me with austingreen, another PC member. I think he participated in an earlier BATCH. Currently they are accepting subscribers for BATCH 6.

Jonas might be interested in the following:

http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Green%20Choice/programdetails.pdf

 

But John, does it really matter how the bookkeeping of the program works? You can't be paying for wind and your next door neighbor not paying for wind and both be connected to the same grid...and have your electrons come from one place and his from another. I think that is what Jonas was saying.

If 1000 people "paid" for wind but they could only deliver enough for 900, then they would need to contract for more during the next season, right?

Mike

 

Yes, it does matter. It is the reason more wind farms are being developed.

They only accept enough subscribers for what they have, and NO MORE. Please read the documentation I linked in for more details.

btw, neither house gets "electrons" from the power plant or wind turbine.
Electrons, Flow, and Conductors

 

Do you sign up for a specific limit on how many kw-hrs you can buy? No. Not that I can see. In your link it says:

>> A batch is “sold out” when the anticipated annual energy from the batch sources is fully subscribed

So they estimate the "anticipated" annual usage for the people who subscribe to a batch (or maybe an average person, it doesn't say). What happens when there is a very hot or very cold week or two and very little wind? I guess they hope (and plan for) it to average out over the year. But certainly during the hot/cold spell each specific subscriber did not get their power from wind (or the others in the mix). It is just like Jonas said. All the power gets dumped into a big pool. You paid to dump in renewable. You take out whatever is in the pool. Over the accounting period the provider makes a best effort (?) to have all your inputs and outputs match. But it is still one big (regional) pool. How could it work any other way?

Mike

 

I will let austingreen comment on the details, he is more familiar with the GreenChoice program. I am not an Austin Energy GreenChoice subscriber, just a Plugin Everywhere subscriber.

Jonas seemed to think people were just trading RECs, which is not the case for GreenChoice.

 

Each green choice program is different, and I can only speak for the programs in Austin and Palo Alto.

When you subscribe they estimate what your power usage is going to be. This varies from year to year so in 2011 we all used extra because of the hot summer. This summer was cooler and excess wind was sold to other austin energy subscribers. My batch is actually less expensive than the standard rate, so this lowered costs. They build enough for the average year plus a buffer.

Buying a batch actually builds wind turbines. You can find where the wind farm is and see the real turbines if you want. As more people buy wind, more wind is built. The wind is not sold twice. Green choice has paid for some of the transmission lines needed. The state and federal government have also contributed to running transmission from the wind farms to the green choice customers.

Q1 Does the power just get dumped into a big pool?
A1 No. All the green choice energy production is accounted for. Individual energy simply goes to the grid, but all of the green choice generation much be accounted for and added to the grid and used. There are transmission lines to users and user demand for the wind.

Each electron is not tagged though. ERCOT manages where the electricity flows on a minute to minute basis.

What are you and Jonas worried about? If you are worried that the power is not added to the grid you can read the audits. If you are worried austin is adding coal to the grid, the question is only how soon we can shut down the coal power plant. The more wind people buy the sooner the coal plant gets closed. Wind through austin energy's green choice means you are not responsible for fossil fuel usage, some ghg is impacted though it is not 0. The percentage impact changes year to year and is difficult to calculate.

All of the public chargers in austin are run with solar or wind power.