Toyota teases all-new RAV4 ahead of L.A. Auto Show debut

You could gain 2+ mpg with LRR tires.

Mike

Mobile on my SGH-i717

 

Hybrid speculation -

We can kill the speculation that a hybrid version would be available at launch.

I did not see any mention of moving the RAV4 to the Camry platform, so I assume it is still on its own platform.

Since the hybrid was not mentioned at launch, it should be at least 1 year out, but is likely included in the hybrids toyota has promised by 2015.

The rav4 hybrid could be waiting for things promised for development for the gen IV prius such as e4wd and a new hsd. That would push it out to 2014 at the earliest.

 

True, but these may be LRR 17s already. We will have to wait for more details.

 

CX-5 has 2.0l engine though... But big hit should be turbo diesel when it comes to NA.

Toyota has 2.0l Valvematic in Rav4 in Europe, as well as 2.5l for Russian market... 2.0l spends 20% less fuel than 2.5l. But it is too small of an engine for Rav and CX-5 IMHO.... 2.5l is optimal.

And a diesel is much, much better choice. I would never get Rav4 with petrol engine. Hopefully Hybrid will be soon enough too.

 

It will probably get Camry's HSD... Toyota already has e4wd system in RX and in some other cars in Japan, but I think it would actually be better if they just add HSD to Rav4's AWD. I preffer 50:50 split of 200hp than 200hp in front and 45hp at the back.

Then again, if they are waiting for something... what is it? Otherwise I am sure they would love to release it right now.

 

Are they using a bmw diesel engine for the new rav4 europe? Or is this before the bmw engines start appearing in toyota europe vehicles.

I expect an expensive toyota cute ute with a diesel would not sell well in north america.

I would expect that if they were just dropping the camry's hsd into the ute then it would have been announced today. Other than on this site, I had heard that they were not just going to do that.

I would expect at a minimum a more powerful battery to handle the extra power requirements for rolling resistance and drag. The rav 4s AWD hooked to a camry hsd makes no sense. It is heavier, more expensive, and less efficient than an electronic system.In other words a kludge. If you want to hook it to the existing 4wd transmission a sonata type clutched motor and conventional transmission would make much more sense. No reason that at least 90 hp couldn't be applied to the rear wheels (mg3) at low speeds using full mg1 generation and battery power in a revised hsd system.

 

I meant diesel for CX-5 in US, which should be coming.... As to Diesel in Europe, they will start using BMW's diesels in 2014, when EuroVI comes into play and BMW releases new engines... For this Rav4, they managed to improve fuel consumption by 12% on average in Europe (both diesels and petrols)... not sure if they will replace all diesels or just some.

But I have driven 2.0l Rav4 (old AZ engine) and really dont know why would anyone do that to themselves... It is too slow, makes you run it high rpm, which is then trashy. I would suspect that 2.5l is much better and diesel cant be beat for small SUV.

As to the 90hp, you are forgetting battery output limitations... I doubt Rav4 would get more than 45hp at the back... Rav4.4 also does not use permament 4WD, so it is very efficient system currently, not an Land Cruiser.

 

ok. I don't think the diesel cx-5 will sell that well in this country, but that makes more sense. Thanks for the information on the bmw engines.

mazda's skyactiv should feel much better with the high compression and di. It is slower with only 155 hp compared to 176 for the rav4, but it accelerates faster than the prius.

A 2 liter turbo option like the escape has along with the di version of the 2.5L (higher efficiency and power) may be good options on the RAV4 when they become available.

Nah, didn't forget anything.

There are two electrical paths to mg3
1) battery
2) ice ->mg1->mg3.

power split can change, but is ICEp x (.28xRPMmg1/(.72 RPMoutput + .28RPMmg1). As long as output shaft rpm is small compared to mg1 rpm much of the ice power can go to mg3. Since output shaft rpm is proportional to vehicle speed, more power is available to the back wheels at lower speeds. This may be why the rumored gen IV prius system only is engaged until 60 kph.

There are 3 modes in the new rav4 4wd. Its likely sport mode will only work full at lower speeds, but it is a hybrid after all. Many would choose higher efficiency, lower weight, and lower cost if they are choosing a hybrid.

The mode unavailable is locked low speed full time 4wd. I am guessing, but do not know the specifications that this would require a beefed up psd to not break while driving. This adds more cost and expense. If this mode is important a flywheel type hybrid system like hyundai uses in the sonata will work much better. Either way you will lose some efficiency.

 

In the CX-5 it's a high compression DI engine though, with a light weight chassis. It's the SUV that let's me call the Prius PHV SUV heavy.

My bet is that that Toyota is waiting for whatever comes out of their partnership Ford for truck hybrids. While it might not matter to potential Rav4 hybrid buyers, or the Escape hybrid one, hybrid trucks are out performed by straight ICE ones in the areas of payload and towing. Small diesels will just make the gap worse for hybrids.

Then newer ICE tech has allowed the fuel economy gap to close without the expense of a hybrid. like Ford, Toyota probably figured most potential Rav4 hybrid buyers would buy the Prius v. Ground clearance and optional AWD are its only advantages, and the people that need those are few.

 

Rav4 is not a truck... and Rav4 sells 4x better than Prius v.

So more correctly, few people need Prius v and many more need Rav4

 

I'm not sure who really needs a RAV4, but the cute ute segment is growing, people seem to want this class of cars. Buyers seem to be both moving down from more expensive mid size SUVs and from larger cars.

I don't know if my sampling is biased, but I mainly see women in their 30s and 40s driving this class of cars. Rav4 created the category, but now sits behind the cr-v and escape. The redesign should help it grab market share. Ford looked at the demographic and decided that they were unlikely to pay enough extra to justify a hybrid at current costs. Toyota may be looking at the same numbers.

A sizable number of north american buyers may like the high seating position and may want the extra measure of perceived safety of 4wd. Since the rav4 dropped the towing capacity in the 2013, I doubt toyota is waiting to make the beast tow. Toyota is likely trying to reduce cost of its hsd or implement a better e4wd or both. We have a ford supplier on this thread saying that it was about cost of the system right now, and that makes a lot of sense. That doesn't mean toyota will not be able to bring down the cost in the next year or three.

 

I sure hope the Toyota people are paying attention here, because I couldn't agree with you more. This would be the perfect car for my wife's next car. She works in a hospital and needs to get through some moderate snow every once in a while. I told her that her next car would definitely be a hybrid. This would fit the bill perfectly!

 

Rav4 is 2nd best selling SUV worldwide, so we have to look at it from that perspective - Rav4 is Toyota's 5th best selling car worldwide.. after Corolla, Camry, Yaris and Hilux. Its up there next to Prius in sales, and in 2013 will probably easily outsell the Prius Liftback.
Ford makes 15x less Hybrids than Toyota. Who cares what Ford thinks makes sense? If you go what Ford or other manufacturer thinks, Prius would never be made.

I dont see any difference between Rav4 and Camry when it comes to HSD... so I wonder why the hold up with the hybrid. Maybe it is simply about production capacities?

All new Highlander is coming in 2013 as well, so for NA market they are trying to make Rav4 not compete with Highlander when it comes to some things, but still.

 

My dad just bought a new RAV4.
On the positive side, my opinion is it's a quiet, comfortable vehicle. I also like the size and stance. Big enough to give you good visibility and utility, but small enough you don't feel like you are driving a behemoth.

On the negative side, my dad is very disappointed in the gas mileage. He got it last spring, and it consistently has been several MPG's below the EPA. My dad doesn't easily complain, but he has even taken in to the dealership to try to see why it isn't anywhere near the advertised EPA.

So a Hybrid Rav4? Might be an interesting product.

I find the vehicle to be comfortable, and very useable, ( a little boring ) but if you can offer one with Hybrid advantage it might be interesting.

 

Ford thought the cute ute hybrid would sell well. They sold one for years. I'm sure toyota looked closely at why the ford escape hybrid did not live up to sales expectations. So it is likely that Toyota cares what ford thinks, and even more what its experience is in this market. That's who. They don't really want another Lexus HS on their hands. You speculated that the rav 4 would have a hybrid soon in the past. This is an explanation of why that speculation may be wrong. If you don't like the explanation, then why didn't Toyota talk about a hybrid at launch? We did have a parts vendor on this thread saying cost. The higher cost of the FEH was a major factor in slow sales.

Conclusion - Toyota cares about what Ford thinks.
Ignorance of the world outside of toyota is hubris.

Well you don't but toyota does. These are possible differences

1) Volume likely will be much lower for a R4H than a TCH, while comsumers may be more cost sensitive and technologically conservative in the small utility market.
2) Rav4 Likely needs a more powerful battery to work properly with the higher rolling resistance and drag

3) A less expensive 4wd and hsd are likely in development.

That makes no sense at all.
HiHy likely will only sell 6000 units in the US this year, and that is by far the biggest market. A Rav4 hybrid needs to be much less expensive and it is unlikely to hurt HiHy profitability. HiHy sales are hurt by people down sizing SUVs even if they use more gas, as well as competitive vehicles like the Explorer. If toyota tries to keep the Rav4 from taking Highlander customers, they will just go to competitive models like the CRV and Escape.

 

Ford probably loses money on every hybrid they make... how much do they make these days, will it be 100k/year in 2013? How can you apply same scale of production/costs to them and Toyota? You are talking nonsense.

Worldwide, Rav4 hybrid could have a chance to sell more than Camry... because it sells in more markets that are hybrid friendly - such as EU.

As to Highlander, Toyota said that no more V6 because Highlander has it. I didnt mean hybrid specifically, although I do wonder if highlander might get 4cly HSD.

In any case, it is consumers that suffer without HSD/Diesel small SUVs in USA. Those small petrols are annoying and spend too much fuel. Despite Europe having 2.0 Valvematic engine in Rav4, which is at least 20% more efficient (according to EU MPG), and probably even more in real life than US 2.5l DVVTI, and despite it being $3k cheaper than diesel, I would never get it over Diesel Rav4.

 

huh
Give me the explanation then. If Toyota can sell 100,000 Rav4 hybrids a year, why aren't they doing it. You argued before that it was easy and cheap for them. Explain why you are so much smarter than Toyota.

Since Toyota is manufacturing hybrid components in high cost Japan, I would expect components in a Rav4 hybrid built in japan and shipped to europe to be higher than a c-max hybrid.

The EU doesn't buy many hybrids look up the numbers if you don't believe me. The US and Japan buy the largest percentages. Japan much bigger than the US in recent years because of large incentives.

EU is projected to be a poor market for cars in the next few years. More hybrids may still sell but the numbers will be very very small compared to the world outside of Europe.

We know that Luxury Hybrids SUVs sell. The highlander gets it because the Lexus RXh gets it. Highlander will use whatever the lexus gets.

I don't think the escape and crv lack a v6 because hylander has it. They dropped it because it does not sell very well, and cost extra development. That is why it was rumored the RAV4 would lose the V6.

Here is a lot of long winded sillyness

1) If Toyota actually got 20% better fuel economy on the EPA test with valvematic then they would sell it in the US. The european test does not follow US driving conditions.

2) Toyota is not punishing america by not offering a hybrid now, they simply have decided it won't be profitable. I expect them to sell one eventually. I don't think we are punished by lack of an auris hybrid in north america, it simply won't be profitable compared to the prius for toyota.

3) Strong emissions laws in the US have slowed adoption of diesels. These make them more expensive than the European version. Even with the weaker European rules it is doubtful that many would pay the extra money for a toyota diesel small SUV. I would like it if the US rolled back safety requirements to European levels which would allow for lighter vehicles.

4) those really interested in getting the best fuel economy in america are not going to be buying small SUVs

So I take your point is just some european whining. Fix the financial crisis and maybe car sales will improve in the Eurozone. Toyota only had a 6.6% market share in Europe last year. How is that going to be the big hybrid engine? Otherwise actually read some car news about what is going on in the world. European autosales are likely to contract.

 

We Hear: Toyota RAV4 Hybrid Remains a Possibility - WOT on Motor Trend

 

lol, why personal insults? Bacause I said Toyota doesnt care about Ford that sells 20x less hybrids? Why would they base their decisions on Ford? That just makes so little sense.

You have a company that will sell 70k hybrids in 2013 and you have a company that will sell 1,400,000 hybrids in 2014.

70,000 vs 1,400,000.

Why the heck would Toyota do what Ford does? To sell less cars? To be less profitable? To get worse ratings? What?


Toyota has 4% share of the market, not 6.6%. I could care less about car sales in Europe other than cars are my hobby.