Is there interest in a group buy of A123 20ah prismatic pouch cells?

I have just found a listing on Aliexpress that shows the A123 cells with the zipper fuse. At $19.80 each and it includes a zipper fuse although they have obviously been disassembled from existing battery packs due to the reduced tab size and may be used cells. The zipper fuse provides short circuit protection so it may have an advantage over the full tab cells. The shipping costs are increasing making it more expensive bringing up the price from US$19.80(without shipping) to US$29.98(with shipping to USA for 80 cells bulk price). I have sent a message to the seller asking what is the short circuit rating of the zipper fuse. After my message is translated to Chinese it may completely lose its meaning.

A123 20Ah systems prismatic short tab pouch cell Type automative class lithium ion cell-in Rechargeable Batteries from Electrical Equipment & Supplies on Aliexpress.com

 

At the high current but low voltage I would expect the copper tab to melt and open circuit (like a fuse) with little/if any explosion at all due to the low voltage. In any case I would wear a face shield just to be safe.

 

did you also read the specs..
seem to be from something else
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Specifications:

Shape/Can material Prismatic/Aluminum
Typical Capacity 20Ah
Minimum Capacity 20Ah
Nominal Voltage 3.2V
Charge Voltage 4.2v±0.05v
Charge Current(recommendation) Less than 1400mA
Discharge Current(Max.) 2.5A(≤45°c)
2.0A(≤60°c)
Discharge Cutoff Voltage 3.0V

 

Those specs are complete BS. The cells look like regular Korean 20 Ah cells (right PN in the photo), but those numbers come from somewhere else altogether.

 

Go

I did not notice the specs. The top says the cell weight is 500grams which is about right but the bottom says the weight is 41.5 grams which obviously wrong. So I would assume that the specs tabled at the bottom is incorrect and is a mistake and is probably meant for a different battery cell.

 

Thats Wy i dont trust these.
You never now what you end up with.
When you get your package .


-Tapatalk

 

I had sent a message to Andy Wang asking what is the current rating of the zipper fuse. All I got was a download of the A123 cell specs that is provided by the A123 website. He just played dumb or just has no idea what he is selling.

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I'm not saying this to bust anyone's chops or try to stop anyone from experimenting and learning, but as somebody who works at a battery manufacturer that is in bankruptcy, and knowing that getting enough good cells to build our modules and packs was a major problem, it's a little upsetting to see so many cells being sold on the "grey" market that don't appear to have anything wrong with them at all. The cells pictured up the page look to me like they were taken right off the end of the line in Korea. I don't believe that they were ever built into modules with the tabs as cleanly trimmed as they are (the clean smoothness of the pouch material is another giveaway here). What's shown above is a cell ready to be stacked into a module--in other words, single cells fully manufactured, the state in which they should have the highest possible monetary value. I think the conclusion I'm driving at here is obvious, the remaining question is where did these cells and A123 part company? Given the location of the sellers, A123's affiliates in Shanghai--ATBS and SAIC--seem like the most likely scenario. Please consider all this before buying cells from these guys.

 

Just out of curiosity...how are they shipping these things? Anyone care to share?

 

Here is my understanding .First (the owner's and managment at A123 are well chuckleheads)They have alot of USA taxpayer grant money (remind you of soylandra).....which they have wasted. At best A123 is USA marketing company with overseas mfg. At worst this a company that only sells to OEM and Fisker(exclusive contract) Then say that can not make money /profit with mfg or North American sales.

 

They're supposed to be shipped as class 9 hazmat. I find it hard to believe this is being done at the price you state above. (EDIT: Actually, I just took another look at your numbers....maybe you ARE paying for Class 9 Hazmat). Now, I happen to think the shipping rules for these cells are a bit over the top, but if they're shipping these things with charge in them, sending them through normal shipping channels is very risky, not just for the vessel carrying them, but for the whole industry. A crushed box has the potential to down an airliner. That is the last kind of publicity the battery and EV industries need--I'm sure we can all agree on that.

Having said that, these cells CAN be shipped safely this way, but they must be discharged to near 0% SOC prior to shipping. This eliminates the possibility of evolution of dangerous levels of heat if a cell is damaged by impact.

Anyone taking delivery of these cells via "normal" shipping channels should, IMO, insist that the cells be taken to a very low SOC prior to shipping. Of course, then you'd want to be reassured that the seller won't OVERdischarge the cells prior to shipping, because what you get then is a time bomb. Relaxed OCV of 2.5V should be the target. Any cell that is pulled low enough to relax at ~300 mV or lower should be destroyed. Same if the cell has ever been driven negative. Going that low causes the copper electrode to dissolve. If the cell is charged again, the copper then forms dendrites that puncture the separator, shorting out the cell, leading to cell rupture or possibly worse depending on where and when the cell fails.

 

I won't argue that there were/are some chuckleheads high up in the company, and this was a major problem. I would say A123 had a difficult time transitioning from the R&D phase to the actual "produce and make money" phase you would want to see emerge. Too much of the company is still in a R&D mindset, and we should be past that now, at least in our mfg operations. Hopefully JCI will take the reigns and fix that problem in short order--it may be the best thing to happen to the technology in years.

As far as tax money, we were indeed the largest recipient of DOE money among battery makers. We were promised $250M in loans, but up to the bankruptcy the company only ever saw about $140M of that--not really all that much money in the scheme of things. Private investment has been much greater than that, so the idea that we've taken loads of govt money and just pissed it away is bogus, IMO. And while there is some mfg overseas, most of the manufacturing at A123 takes place here in the US. The Korea plant was shut down months ago, and the key workers relocated to Michigan where the 20Ah pouch is produced exclusively. That's right, A123 closed down production in Korea to move it to the US. Virtually ALL of the company's engineering and R&D is also in the US and always has been. Calling the company a US marketing shell is simply not accurate or fair.

As far as selling only to OEM's, this is true, and I understand the frustration this causes among folks like us who like to experiment and participate in some way in this little revolution we've got going. When I first joined the company I had the same gripe, but the fact is that A123 simply does not have the engineering resources to provide the needed tech support to a small army of experimenters who are not even trying to make a profit. We can barely support the OEM's and their myriad questions and technical struggles. And let's be honest....how many guys here even recognized the zipper fuse for what it is? Between the enormous support requirements for all users, the liability that goes with releasing such a product to amateurs, and the fact that we had a hard time making enough cells to keep the OEM's supplied....it just isn't in the cards any time soon. I very much doubt that JCI will change this course either. This business is not profitable yet, and it never will be until a certain scale is reached. OEM's are the only viable path. I think the interest in JCI and others in continuing with the technology speaks well for the work we've done so far--most folks tell us we are years ahead of everyone else in terms of system integtration. Wasted money indeed....

 

I am not going to address all the misleading statements ....intwine in the above..... However I am going to state the following issues..
Enginer Kits (use a123 cell to make HV battery for kit)
I own a kit and now getting a additional battery pack will be a hassle

 

Wb,
I want to start off by saying how much I appreciate having an A123 employee on this forum.

But... saying 140M is not really all that much money is a slap in my face. I constantly hear people say that a large sum of taxpayer money is not really all that much. Not really all that much compared to what???? 140M is a ton of money to me (especially when its my tax dollars). Every tax dollar is precious to me and it should be precious to all. Not one penny should be wasted. Statements like this make me not want to have the gov't support any more future companies. It is a terrible thing to say and a terrible way to look at it.

Proper management of taxpayer funding is essential and should be the highest priority of anyone receiving it. Mismanagement ruins it for all the future companies and honestly, mismanagement of my taxpayer dollars is one of the things I find the most offensive.

I think it would be a good idea for all of us to examine how we look at the taxpayer dollar.

 

Hi USN,

140M is a huge sum of money to me personally as well, but may main points are that a) 140M is not 250M, and b) in the scheme of the budget of our nation and even the budget of A123, it is not a make-or-break sum by any stretch. Based on the population of the US, that comes to less than $2 a person. Most of us here have ponied up a whole lot more than that to affect a similar change in our personal lives; how many would be unwilling to put that amount up to help make it happen on a broader scale?

Please understand that waste bothers me enormously, and there is of course waste and inefficiency at A123, but I can say that about every place I have ever worked, and this is the only place I've ever worked that got any kind of government subsidy. Waste is not the exclusive province of the government (though as [apparently] a military man, you surely know how good the govt is at it), and I get a little tired of people acting as though it is. The rock throwers would have us believe that 100% of A123's money came from the government and that is was all blown on whores and booze for the execs. It's a gross distortion of reality that I simply do not accept and an accusation I will not sit by and listen to without responding. A lot of good work has been done here, and too many people--even many who have worked here--just don't seem to understand that. I have never worked harder in my life than I am right here, right now, and it's a slap in MY face to say that we do nothing here but waste taxpayer money.

The big losers here are the shareholders--private investors who had the vision to know that this technology has a real future that is good for the country and good for the wider world. One could argue that MORE subsidy would have protected those people from the massive losses they are incurring now, but no amount of political wrangling is going to change what's real--A123 still has real value, and the people of the US are very likely going to get a whole lot more than $2 benefit from this venture in the long run.

Pacem,

 

If you're going to call me a liar, you could at least be specific about it.

You seem to think production of A123 cells is going to stop. What gives you that idea?

 

I hear ya'. Just so you know, I am just as bothered by a $500 toilet seat as I am 140M lost by a private sector company. I am a prior military man (retired) but I still work for the feds.

I do appreciate the hard work you and others at A123 have put in and I do know (firsthand) how bad decisions by a few affect an entire population (ever heard the saying "you curse like a sailor"? I don't even curse). I'm not throwing rocks at you (necessarily) or even A123. I just believe if we (collectively) discount 140M, or any sum of taxpayer money, as insignificant, we hurt our nation in way worse ways than the simple loss of the money (ie: apprehension to future investments, larger deficit, loss of trust in gov't and the list goes on). It may only be $2 a person but, it's my $2 and its not insignificant to me.

I don't know who said, you do nothing there but waste taxpayer money, but, I know it wasn't me. I think you may be reading in to that too much but, I do understand your frustration. I want you to unequivocally know that I don't think that. I have no doubt you have worked harder than ever. There is no amount of hard work that can make unrealistic goals and poor decisions successful. Success relies on timing, planning, forecasting and execution. The fed placed too many unrealistic expectations on A123. Those expectations should have been deemed unrealistic by the 123's upper management and the fed at the planning stage (to protect their shareholders). From my perspective, it seems 123 trudged forward to satisfy the fed to get the money (I could be totally wrong on this). They had to have known the demand wasn't there (if they didn't, they should have). If they did know and went forward anyway, that's a crime in itself. If they didn't know, what does that say about their ability to forecast?

I would really like to know what their salaries (A123's upper management) were last year??? People like me, have visions of a group of execs in a large room, scheming how to get money from the fed, in order to give themselves a large salary, all with no concern about the end result. Did the top exec at 123 earn more money last year than I have in my entire life?

I agree the big losers are the shareholders. As a taxpayer, I am a shareholder (whether I want to be or not). I invested at least $2 in A123 (at the rate I pay taxes, I'm guessing it was more). I def feel like I lost here but, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we will win in the long run. Only time will tell but, in the short run, startups with good intentions, that are well managed, will have a much tougher time getting grants, loans etc.

The bottom line; no matter who or what caused the problem, the problem is there and the effects will affect the future (hopefully in a positive manner).

I can tell I struck a nerve with you and I'm sorry about that. It is not my intention to make you feel like you have to defend yourself or A123. My beef is not with you and I hope you will hold no ill will toward me.