2012 Consumer Reports Automoblile Reliability Survey!

I do not use TTAC for reliability information, but when they describe how flawed CR's question methodology is I have to agree that it is a deeply flawed customer survey and does not measure reliability. Read it for yourself.

If you think that CR getting 11.3 instead of Motor trend's 10.6 on accelleration testing, and 39 mpg versus EPAs 50 mpg in real world fuel economy testing on the prius c, then be my guest. Continue to spread the ignorance. Be sure and pick and choose your news sources and ignore other information from those same sources. And by all means continue to not think for yourself and believe whatever a well respected publication like CR says, regardless of other sources.

 

Boy, I can't wait to see them test C-Max hybrid and Fusion hybrid.

 

i just saw article that Toyota Prius was #1 selling auto for ALL cars for 2012 YTD in CA...i had shared it on FB...but looks like it never made it to my page.

 

I'll guess they love the C-Max. As with motor-trend, CR seems to add a load of forgiveness towards vehicles - whenever they rate a vehile's "handling". When that blessing is given by CR, other elements seem to get skewed. Not a complete hall pass, but it seems to make a vehicles' other areas get rated higher then they otherwise should. And for what ever it's worth, CR will likely appreciate the C-Max for the handling pigeon hole. CR's Prius reviews though . . . I have never understood.

 

Surveys have statistical limitations ?

STOP THE PRESSES !!!

 

The flaw is because of the methodology. They are not tracking defects. They are tracking what a skewed sample regards as problems. In the case of the explorer CR pretty much said they are calling design problems defects. On other cars a user that likes the dealer and gets a under warranty repair may not report the issue as a defect. CR for instance in the past had the V6 camry less reliable than the 4 cylinder, even though these defects were in parts common with the 4 cylinder. It is not that I do not agree with the results, I am saying the method is garbage. Did Ford really have world class reliablitity in 2010, but have everything break in 2012? No of course not. CR is not testing or even surveying for reliability.

This is exactly the problem with calling Quality or Reliability surveys that measure how people consider design. The VW total quality means that people are dinging Toyota for some of its design, but calling it low quality. They should spell out these things.

All of the car companies have gotten much better at getting rid of defects outside of the first year of production, so these surveys are leaching into things like design. Don't get me wrong, if you want your auto transmission to keep gears better and have smooth shifts, the double clutch power shift 6 speed has design problems. It seems on the explorer and fiesta to be designed and programmed with efficiency in mind instead of smoothness and feel. But this is quite a different issue than the transmissions breaking and needing to be serviced and replaced. That would be reliability. What CR is measuring is owners perceptions of reliability, and this has a bias for auto companies that have had good reliability in the past, even if their car has defects.

Really if you want reliability you want a survey like this
Car Reliability Ratings - 2012 Vehicle Dependability Study | J.D. Power and we won't get an answer on a car like the prius c until owners have driven it for years in the field. Until then I expect it to be reliable like most other toyotas, but please the most reliable car on the road based on some skewed user surveys. Give me a break, do you really think that prius c has come from nowher to be more reliable than a Lexus LS.

 

I read the SAE papers on the transmission, engine and some of the control laws. From what I've seen, I'm leaning positive on 'prius c' reliability. For example, the water cooling loop in the transmission is gone, replaced by using just the ATF fluid and the case. Also, the ATF is pumped up using the internal gears versus the engine driven pump. To me this says better cooling and lubrication that is tied to vehicle motion, independent of the engine running.

Another point, the traction battery is now 144/7.2 = 20 modules instead of 28 or 38. Fewer pieces will make a part more reliable than one with more.

I'm also getting the impression significant tuning of the control laws happened with the 'prius c'. This potentially pays big dividends by splitting the driving load between the engine and electric system to optimize vehicle performance and put the load on the power system best able to handle the demand. This is also the route to optimum part life.

Of course there is a risk of 'infantile' design problems but by my count, the prius c is the 5th release . . . not their first rodeo.

Bob Wilson

 

Well that would be reasoning that the prius c will be highly reliable. My problem is that this is not at all what Consumer Reports is doing on their reliability survey. Would you expect it to be better than say the 2009 Lexus LS that led all cars in the 2012 JD powers dependability report?

I've got to say the jury is out on that one. The smaller battery may mean both the battery and ice get worked harder than the prius liftback. Time will tell, but my educated reasoning would assume the 2012 prius liftback will end up more dependable than the 2012 prius c, depending on options of course.

Well it is a cross between a yaris and a prius, with lots of new parts. I would not assume that it will be more reliable than its two parents without years of data.

I certainly am not arguing that the prius c is unreliable. I just don't see how consumer reports is doing any valid testing

 

Why do you try to find any reason to defend Ford? Alot of new owners are not happy and are spending there time going to the dealer getting their cars fixed. I have had my 08 ford work truck in the shop 10 times this year, and a few of the times the dealers, more than one took a week to fix it cause their so busy. They also can't fix a starting problem, Two different dealers put three different parts on but no luck. So at least once a week i'm stuck turnning the key 100 plus times waiting for the truck to start. From my eyes ford really does have alot of quality problems.

 

So we Toyota,Prius owners will continue to have a peace of mind. Haha...

 

HSD in Prius has been proven to be very reliable. Why is it even debated?

 

AG has tried to turn Ford's poor showing into a referendum on CR's survey methods, which is silly. I will say though that all the surveys I am aware of are unable to weight problem serverity or cost into their analyses.

I for one would be much unhappier as a Ford owner if my problem was a transmission, compared to say a problem with the infotainment system.

 

Adamace1,
I am sorry for the poor experience you are having with your truck. You definitely have real defect(s) that gets monitored in longer term quality surveys. That isn't what this one does. CR would not have counted your problem.

Further, you seem to have a dealer problem. I would find an independant shop to at least diagnose the beast. There just aren't that many possibilities with a starting problem. Again I am not trying to belittle your experience only point out problems with these initial reliability surveys.

It shouldn't be, I was slamming the poor methodology that seems to say the prius c is more reliable than the liftback, among other poor things. I especially did not like how CR said the prius c didn't break but they did not like the car when talking to the media.

On the 3 year JD powers dependability report the prius came out the top of its class. The data is not in for the Gen III yet, but we have not heard any serious reports of lack of dependability in the hsd.

 

Now what makes you say that ?

 

They surveyed owners of the cars for the first 3 months of ownership for this reliability survey. For there similar studies when adamace1 bought his vehicle ford ranked much higher. If you would actually read the links, instead of assume I am wrong, you might learn something.

 

Reference ? I think you mean that cars as young as 3 months old were included in the survey.

I read the article on the CR website. Can you say the same ? Have you read CR's description of its survey methods ? I have.

Lastly, I don't always assume you are wrong, thus my question. I do however, after reading enough of your posts through the years, realize you are a self-aggrandizing, rationalizing ideological fool.

I'm curious: do you think anybody here is fooled by your recent flip flop on AGW ? You should really admit that you were a denialist idiot for 10+ years. It would patch your reputation a tad.

 

lol, you are wrong. nothing new i guess.

 

I dont think any of these surveys, or all of them should be taken as anything but consumer satisfaction surveys.

CR lets consumers rate how big their problem is. If you end up as last brand, that means your consumers think your cars are the worst.

End of story there.

What customer things about their car and their experience owning the car is the most important part of doing any kind of business.

To play this as if customers are stupid, and more demanding for Ford than for GM, or BMW, or Toyota is just silly.

I remember JD Power UK surveys... Toyota was usually in top 3 and then recalls happened... next year - every model that was recalled, dropped in satisfaction ratings, those that did not get recalled, stayed the same rating or better. These surveys (JDP and CR) track how people are satisfied with their cars reliability, and heck I think thats very important part of their re-purchase of same brand in 3-4 years from now.

You think customer that has rated Ford as worst will buy it again in 3 years? I bet they wont.