2013 Ford C-Max Energi Beats Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid At 100 MPGe Combined Read more: http://rum

Are they the same chemistry?

Beyond the picture of the rear space, has anyone had a chance to explorer the rear cargo area of the Energi? I was wondering if there is a storage space beneath the floor? If so, how much, and what shape of the space?

 

Probably not. It wouldn't matter anyway. The packaging and usage algorithms play a role in the outcome as well. Heck, even the recharging has an influence. There are lots of new variables to take into account.

That is a surprising difference though. I certainly didn't expect a draw that low.

 

What is your source for this?

I thought the Prius PHV used around 2.8 kWh out of 4.4 kWh which is around 63% (not counting charging overhead).

I'm not aware of any battery chemistry which would support an 85% depth of discharge cycle. The limited C-MAX Energi specifications that I have seen imply more like 65-72% depth.

 

That 2.8 kWh is only the EV portion of the battery-pack. There's still the chunk for HV.

 

that picture shown is the HYBRID C-Max. The ENERGI has LESS storage as there will be a hump behind the back seat

 

The less storage will be a major drawback for many. I'd still like to know how much of the hump is battery and how much just to have a flat storage floor with usable space underneath. Not trying to lessen what is a big con here, but lets not forget that this is standard car converted to a plug in. How much trunk space did the hybrid Civic, Camry, Fusion, and Sonota lose as first gen hybrids? I've seen the pass through of the new Camry hybrid. It will be of limited versatility, but is an improvement over the first one's. Honda didn't even bother with folding seats.

I haven't read anything about major sacrifices made to turn the C-max into a hybrid. I think the Energi has enough pros that, despite a glaring con, people with make the decision to buy one. Which will be a good thing for the market.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be at higher EV ranges. This is one of the things I think Tesla did so right. Since how efficient an EV or PHEV is varies so much on drive distance, give people options within your own brand by making multiple size packs.

 

The battery chemistry should be the same. Both are using Sanyo/Panasonic cells.

Jeff N, you are right with 63% DOD because my Prius PHV calculation included charging loss.

I also included charging loss in Energi. If I take 15% off DOD came out to 75%.

21 city miles at 108 MPGe is about 6.6 kWh. Take off 15% charging loss is 5.7 kWh. 5.7/7.6 kWh is 75%.

 

Curious.. what is the source for that estimate?


(Also congrats to upgrading to a PiP).

 

The source is EPA estimate. AER is 6 miles. Blended is 11 miles. Consumptions were 29kWh/100mi (117 MPGe) electricity and 0.2Gal/100mi (50 MPG) on gas.

From there, 29 kWh/100mi calculates to 117 MPGe for the first 6 miles. 95 MPGe for 11 miles when the 50 MPG gas engine is blended (also given on EPA sticker).

 

Very misleading or meaningless numbers though. My former Hymotion pack Prius used about 4(?) kwh in the first 33 miles or so.
So using the same comparison for the first 33 miles the electricity consumption is about 290mpge!
Of course, in both cases we are ignoring the boost from gas.

If you want to compare the amount of electricity used, just stick to kwh.

 

One cannot separate the energy elements used, all one can conclude from that EPA is 95MPGe overall (or kWh+gas). Since energy used in the first 6 miles was not reported, you cannot just say its 117MPGe on the 6 miles (just because no gas was used), because one the ICE started it also may have provided charge that reduced the battery usage on the full 11 miles.

 

Volt is rated 98 MPGe for the first 38 miles. 37 MPG on premium gas after depletion.

Energi is rated 100 MPGe for the first 20(?) miles. 43 MPG on regular gas after depletion.

Are those misleading also?

 

When the gas blended in, it did so with 50 MPG (0.2Gal/100mi). CS MPG is also rated 50 MPG, so no extra energy was used to lower the electricity consumption figure.

Therefore, PiP electricity consumption is 117 MPGe for the first 6 miles.

 

Oops math fart in the previous post. 0.2Gal/100mi is 500 MPG. That's how little gas was blended during the highway cycle.

 

You don't know that it did not lower electricity.. since the 50MPG was also while using electricity -- John's EV-Boost suggests you can get 100MPG while using both..

It was 1117kWh PLUS .2 gallons., and that is all one can report.

For example, it may have used 91MPGe while in pure EV(first 6 miles) , then once the ICE started moved to much lower EV usage (say 140 MPGe) as the ICE provided propulsion for the hard acceleration and then, once not really needed, generated electricity as well as doing easy driving for the next min or so (it always runs to warm up temp). Would still give 117MPE over the 11 miles.

 

No, and neither is 95mpge for the first 11miles and 50mpg after for the Prius PHV.
But calculating 117mpge using the 29kWhr/100mi and the small print 6 mile AER is. That 29kWh/100mi was reported for the 11 miles blended. It is an assumption that it is the same consumption for when the Prius PHV is in those AER miles.

The car got the 29kWh/100mi while also burning the 0.2gals/100mi over the 11 miles. It is the average rate of electric consumption for those 11 miles. For simplicity we'll say the 0.2 gallons were used in the last five miles. It is possible that pure electric economy is somewhere north of 110mpge for those first 6 miles. In that case, in order to arrive at 95mpge for the total 11 miles, the electric consumption in the last 5 with the gasoline will not be 29kWh/100mi.

The Prius PHV mpge for 5 miles using 29kWh/100mi and 0.2gal/100mi is 56. If it was 95mpge for those 5 miles and the AER 117mpge, then the 11 mile mpge should have been 107 (or close to that, I was lazy and likely calculated the average rate the wrong way)