Toyota plans to sell fuel cell car by 2015

Interior Space: Model S has plenty with 7 seats available and EPA classified it as a large car. It has interior volume of 120 cu.ft (94 passenger and 26 luggage), plus there is 5.3 cu.ft under the hood. The total is 125.3 cu.ft.

Volt is a 4 seater compact car with 108 cu.ft interior volume.

Powertrain: Model S can reach 60 mph in about 4 seconds. Volt does it in 9 seconds. Despite having more weight in Model S (due to being a larger car), it out accelerates Volt because it uses every single fuel in its powertrain. Volt has a mute gas engine that goes unutilized. It is worse because it is a dead weight dragging down the battery. You have the battery pack robbing a rear seat and a gas engine doing nothing. That, I think is a pretty bad (wasteful) design.

Fuel Efficiency: Not much to say about Model S' 89 MPGe. Volt is rated 60 MPGe when combined with 93 MPGe (electricity) and 37 MPG (gas). I now 2013 model has slightly higher electricity MPGe but I do not know the combined figure. My guess would be 61 MPGe.

The 37 MPG gas engine that only runs on premium gas (to maintain warranty) is a substandard for a compact hybrid.

The real issue is using 16 kWh battery to reach 60 MPGe. A well designed plugin hybrid like Prius PHV gets the combined composite 58 MPGe with just 4.4 kWh battery. That's darn efficient for a midsize. Because it has small battery, recharge time is much faster.

 

USB, really?
Less interior space means poorly designed? I would agree it is a design decision, but not necessarily indicative of a bad design. It is a buyer's choice. Some may have no need for a lot of space, in which case it would be a bad design decision to have a waste of space.

Power train: acceleration?? So I suppose the slower yet acceleration of the Prius (about 10 seconds if I am not mistaken) means it is an even worse design?
Just because you don't value the ICE in a Volt doesn't mean others don't.
And what do you mean "...because it uses every single fuel in its powertrain.,,", when referring to the Model S?

Fuel efficiency: So by "not much to say" regarding the Model S 89mpge, are you saying in this category the Volt is a better design than the Model S? Or because the Model S always gets the 89 rating it is better than the Volt since the Volt gets lower efficiency when not running on electric?

 

Yes asked for it so I answered.

I like things that do more with less. I do not like things that do less with more. Everything being equal, a simpler design is the best one. Pretty simple.

 

But you didn't say less with more.
You said that more interior space was better. Is a bus better designed than a motorcycle?

 

Interior space is one of the three categories I listed. I thought the last paragraph sums those up nicely.

 

Sorry, I am still not following.
Your last paragraph talks about the size of the battery vs the fuel efficiency. This makes perfect sense to me, although I don't feel it is the most important point in efficiency.

But you paragraphs preceding your last paragraph have little, if anything to do with that.
The Volt and the Model S are vastly different sizes.
The powertrain has nothing to do with mpge vs battery size.
And I still don't see how the mpge you use fits into the picture. Especially when talking about a BEV. I asked a clarifying question which you didn't address, so I will try again...
Just on the basis of mpge, do you feel the Volt is better designed than the Model S, since it gets a higher rating while operating under electricity?

 

I guess the honda fit is better than the prius then. Better acceleration, no pesky batteries and only one mg (alternator), and my friends can get more in the cargo space than I can in prius. Damn prius won't swallow a kayak

A hybrid, any hybrid is going to be more complicated, but for this complication you get something in return. In the volt its range and the ability to use gasoline, in the prius its much higher city mileage. The disadvantages of the complications are very low. The volt gets 98 mpge in CD, the c-max 100 mpge - while that simpler pure BEV leaf gets a tweener 99 mpge. Try to go on a road trip in that leaf, and you realize that complication comes with extra utility. The Tesla S, is a great design, but I would rather have a volt if I was driving from here to el paso.

 

But cars are tools, and not all tools can do the same task. Only the user knows what the specific task is the case of personal vehicles.

The Prius has a 0 pounds tow rating. Some half ton trucks can handle 10,000. The Prius is a piss poor design for towing a fifth wheel. Doing multiple trips hauling smaller items might even mean burning more gas than using the truck and trailer for just one.

It is also piss poor for driving on trails and off road. That doesn't it make it a poor design. It just isn't the tool for the task. Not everyone needs five seats, or cargo space to move an apartment in their car to meet their task.

Getting a bigger vehicle that really isn't needed because it may be better in some way is an inefficient use of materials. That was one of the driving forces in the SUV craze.

The 60mpge no longer appears in large print on the Volt's sticker. There won't be such a number for the 2013 model. Same for the Prius 58mpge. The EPA realized the consumer needs in a vehicle are too varied for such numbers to be useful for them. The numbers are useless in a discussion without knowing the distance traveled.

 

It makes the most sense going forward. The genesis of Toyota's statement that it was moving forward with hydrogen fuel cell car development, the announcement that spawned this thread.

Hydrogen is the only viable choice as a transportation fuel to replace fossil fuels.

US military is on the same track.

 

Perhaps you missed the interior size reference and the faster refueling speed benefit.

No. Here is why:

1) Smaller and lighter car getting higher MPGe is "business as usual" trade off.
2) Electricity is not the only fuel Volt will use. It uses gasoline at well, so the combined is about 60 MPGe.

I used a comparison with Model S (because you asked) to make clear points about benefits from a good design. The same could be applied to Prius PHV (accelerates with both gas and electric and it has midsize interior with 5 seats and flat cargo floor). So I summarized with Prius PHV.

 

Fit is a great non-hybrid car. Of course it has limitations, 29-31 MPG (depending on transmission) and 287-306 g/mi CO2 emission. It will never reach 210 g/mi that Prius PHV is rated. Prius is longer so you should be able to find items that fit in your Prius that doesn't in the Fit, so your point is moot.

Fit actually has two electric motors as well (alternator and starter). It has a complex multi-gear transmission with clutch(es). Prius has none and it is mechanically simpler. The automatic Fit's acceleration should be about the same as Prius (auto).

Now comes to the Volt.... It has 3 clutches. The battery pack has another coolant loop and the two electric motors are much heavier than necessary for a hybrid. The end result emission is 260 g/mi for a compact plugin. That's taking backward steps in term of interior space, mechanical complexity, emission and bang for the buck.

I will give credit to Volt for the ability to use more domestic fuel. It'll displace 64% (2013 covers 66%) of the miles with electricity but at a cost of increasing emission (US average). There is a better way though. Prius PHV displaces 29% of the miles with electricity yet it also reduces emission over a regular Prius. That's hitting two birds with one stone. That's doing more with less. It keeps the same interior space and 50 MPG gas mileage for long trips. You may not agree with me but that's how I see it (clearly) without distractions from EV miles, EV speed, battery size, etc.

I would rather have a Prius PHV for that trip with 50 MPG on regular gas rather than 37 MPG on premium.

 

From what I am aware of, Volt has 0 pounds for towing as well.

If Volt has 5 seat midsize interior and tow 1,500 lbs, emit 210 g/mi CO2, you may have a point and having a bigger 16kWh battery can be justified. But it doesn't and you can't.

That combined composite figure is used to rank the top 10 in fuel economy. I think they'll continue to do the same for the 2013 list.

 

The Prius is also heavier than necessary. I bet they could reduce the weight if they used 14" wheels, plastic seats, took out the stereo, had a smaller steering wheel and removed the center storage.

By the way, in which state does that 260g/mi apply?

 

A design that is smaller and/or lighter is better designed in my book, as long as it fits the needs of the consumer.

But that 60MPGe is useless without also knowing the distance. Here is a hypothetical for you. Since we are comparing the V0lt and the Model S lets pretend those are the only two choices of vehicles to simplify things.
For a person that drives 30 miles, every day and never more, the Volt will result in a higher MPGe rating than the Model S. Would you say that means it is better designed, or just a better choice for the consumer (if that efficiency is the only thing guiding their choice)?

Bold added by me.
I appreciate your efforts. The reason I am asking these questions is to try to understand how you define that a vehicle is a good or bad design. Since you said the Volt is a poor design and the Model S was an example of a good design that is why I am focusing on those two.

 

That's the US average. I made the chart below by sampling zip codes from all the states.

 

In that case, Volt will be a better choice than Model S. Leaf, Focus EV or Fit EV is even better. Scion iQ EV with 121 MPGe (if sold) may be the optimal choice. With the Volt, you are still lugging the gas engine and gas tank as a dead weight. If you only drive 30 miles everyday, gas should go and you'll get more interior space (like Leaf) and gain even more electric efficiency and cut down on the charge time as well.

The problem with your questions is, that scenario almost never exists in the real-world. It may be possible with a second gas car. For a plugin hybrid with two fuels and two powertrains, you need to take account of both. Otherwise, you are cherry picking, ain't it?

 

No, I don't think I am. I was not representing that hypothetical as a real world example. I am trying to geta clear understanding of your definitions of poor and good design.
So even if a design grants worse MPGe (the S in this case) in limited mileage, it is better designed if the MPGe is better in real world application?
Would you not agree that which car is better designed depends upon how the vehicle is used?

 

kind of convoluted reasoning here. You said you wanted simple, but here your talking about mpg and co2. I guess the geometro could beat it here, but I would not call that good design.

The fit actually can carry things that I want to carry, that the prius can not. It has to do with the shape of the cargo space. Excellent design I don't think the idea that you might be able to find things that I don't want to carry fit in the prius and not the fit a thing that makes that moot. I have been able to borrow vehicles to fit things that don't fit my prius though.

I don't think anyone understanding modern cars thinks the manual transmission in a fit or the clutch is complicated. Most would consider the prius transmission complicated, requireing 2 electric motors a large battery buffer, inverters, and sophisticated software to dance depending on speed driver's imput and terain. It even needs a separate cooling system for the electronics. It is a complicated but and elegant design. It required complicated electronics that were not available when trw first came up with the idea. I don't understand why you think a clutch is a complicated thing.

Yes a volt is more complicated than a fit. If you want to run on strictly wind power you can't do it in a fit. Your emission result requires a large number of assumptions, as has been pointed out before. For those that care about ghg, your number is quite high. I think you should survey volt owners, ask if they care about ghg. If they answer yes ask there driving and power source. YMMV, but I would guess your number is extemely high.

Hold on here, you said bad design versus good design. That seems lke quite a good design, that reduces US emissions. You need to compare it to alternatives not your nation wide hypothetical. Again question your assumptions. I have a tri-time trial bike. I can go about 80% faster with the same effort as my mountain bike. Does that make my mountain bike useless. I'm not going to ride on rough terain, or in packs with the tri bike. If I'm riding to a bar I take the mountain bike, its much more forgiving when I cut through the park, and I would be less sad if it was stolen. Think of the volt as your mountain bike. The tesla roadster as the tri bike. Different capabilities.

But then you are using gas on most trips and only get a bump on the long trips. Put it this way, I loaned my gf my prius to drive to el passo to a funeral 1100 miles round trip, I didn't trust here car, that needed repairs. Sure it got 40 mpg - she drives fast, but volt would likely have gotten 33 mpg - ice clutched in (40 mpg highway versus 48 mpg highway). That might be 5 gallons of gas for the trip, after the electric miles. In my daily driving the 38 mile range would have me use no gas most weeks. Its not that much of a hit for the 4000 miles a year for road trip duty. For my driving pattern a prius phv would be better than a prius, but worse than a volt. YMMV. Sure a 50 mile range car, that got 50 mpg and did 0-60 in 5 seconds would be nicer, but for most of us a phev although more complicated is a better design choice than a bev if we only have one car.

 

With the base battery pack, it's 6.5sec for the Tesla. To get near 4sec, it costs $40 grand.

This goes back to the early days of the Prius' growing appeal with the gen2.

One of the counter arguments to the FUD against it was that the PSD was as mechanically complex as a one speed manual transmission. The smaller number of moving parts gave it an inherent reliability over other transmissions. Of course, it glosses over the need of the battery, invertor, extra cooling, and the computer network needed to keep the entire drivetrain going. But these were the days of the battery needing replacement in 5 years, and a Prius not lasting as long as an H2.

Admitting that clutches and the other transmissions they are in have had no problem lasting the life of most vehicles without problems, or even that putting a clutch in a Prius PHV to improve EV economy is an abandoning of that old argument.

 

Hey USB, I am just about clear, I think, in my understanding of what you view as a good and bad design. Could you just verify if I am right?...

No, I don't think I am. I was not representing that hypothetical as a real world example. I am trying to geta clear understanding of your definitions of poor and good design.

So even if a design grants worse MPGe (the S in this case) in limited mileage, it is better designed if the MPGe is better in real world application?
Would you not agree that which car is better designed depends upon how the vehicle is used?