Toyota plans to sell fuel cell car by 2015

It was more relevant that on the many pages of detailed engineering and operational facts on the operating for years fleet of hydrogen fuel Honda FCX Clarity cars it proved all of Troolbait's opinions wrong.

 

All Honda's site did on the issue of using hydrogen for fuel was show that you have to live in Southern California to drive one. Want to go outside of that area? You are SOL.

Being against hydrogen is not the same as being against fuel cells. The home and small power station ones run on natural gas. It's possible to power them with methanol or other alcohols. Hydrogen has real drawbacks that using those other fuels would address to varying degrees.

 

"After steady advances in development, TMC's proprietary FC stack—for use in the sedan-type FCV scheduled for launch around 2015—boasts the world's highest FC power output density of 3 kW/L, which is more than twice the density of the FC stack currently used in the "FCHV-adv" fuel-cell hybrid prototype, but is approximately half the size and weight.

TMC has also developed a high-efficiency boost converter. Increasing the voltage has made it possible to reduce the size of the motor and the number of FC cells, leading to a smaller FC system with enhanced performance at reduced cost."

Source

 

Hyundai revs up fuel-cell plan as battery technology disappoints| Reuters

"We aim to reduce prices of fuel-cell vehicles to match battery cars by 2020-25," Lim Tae-won, the director in charge of fuel-cell research at Hyundai and its affiliate Kia Motors

"Battery electric car makers entered the market too early without resolving problems such as range anxiety and costs," Lim said. "It was a hasty approach. The battery electric cars may have helped raise brand value for a couple of years, but ended up slowing down the take-off in the market."

Hyundai's production-ready fuel-cell electric vehicle can run as far as 588 kms (365 miles) on a full charge, similar to traditional gasoline vehicles, Lim said, while Nissan's Leaf can drive only up to 73 miles per charge.

Hyundai's Lim said it would cost more to develop a hydrogen refuelling infrastructure than one for electric battery charging, but each hydrogen station would process more cars as it would take just minutes to fill up.
By 2015, Hyundai aims to have the capacity to build 10,000 FCEVs, rising to 100,000 in 2020, when it expects the loss-making business to achieve "economies of scale," Lim said.

GM shifted funding from fuel-cells to push Chevrolet Volt electric car with range extender, but sales have been sluggish.

 

lol. He hopes the loss making business of Fuel Cells will make lower losses in 2020. The sluggish sales of the phv, volt, and leaf would be considered extremely high sales of fcv.

hyundai is behind in plug-in technology, so it points to fuel cells which will always be the next big thing. Lim is hoping fcv costs drop to that of battery cars in 8-13 years.

 

Toyota said their entire fuel cell stack can fit under the front seat. The boost converter can be in the center armrest.

I believe (one day) fuel cell vehicles will be the first electric cars that will be lighter than gas cars with the same driving range.

Source

 

I have no idea why anyone would put a fc under a front seat.

The bulky part of a hydrogen fuel cell car are the hydrogen tanks. The fuel cell stack size was never a problem, its its cost and reliability that are the problems. Car makers should be making progress on costs, but fc + tanks are much more expensive than batteries today.

 

Hyundai got the same "lol" when they entered the car mfg business as a national industrial development policy, now they are challenging Toyota at every car market point including hybrids. So Hyundai has had the last "lol".

That Hyundai, Honda and Toyota all see fuel cell technology as the means for overcoming the issues with EV's (range and refueling) should be instructive for critics and is certainly encouraging for clean car technology.

 

But no word addressing the issues of hydrogen as a fuel.

 

That's already addressed as the hydrogen pumps at Shell stations demonstrate. That some sit in stunned disbelief at the harsh reality is not a problem for the progressive car mfg's.

 

Again, how much does the hydrogen cost? What happens when natural gas prices rise? A harsh winter is predicted, and the majority of NG goes to heating.
How much will it cost the taxpayer to build new stations? You know, so FCV owners can leave southern California.
What about the old, out of date stations that are counted as part of the available refueling structure? Some can only pump 5000psi, so won't completely fill the 10,000psi tanks that are being used. Others can take 30 minutes to fill up. Who is paying to upgrade them?

Pump to car isn't even the issue. It's the plant to pump that is the issue. The only reason California can experiment with hydrogen fueled cars is because they already have an industrial infrastructure for hydrogen for distribution. Without that, the hydrogen would be too expensive for it to work, no matter how much CARB wouldn't to do it.

So how do we get it to from the plant to the station?
Don't say truck. That is too costly for the complete distance.
Don't say compress or liquidify it. Already done, and it's ignorant to assume it isn't. They are also part of the reason why it is costly to transport it. A truck going beyond 200 miles with a tanker of compressed hydrogen will end costing more on shipping than what the gas is worth.

So, how are we going to get the hydrogen out to the ares without an existing distribution infrastructure? Hydrogen can work its way out of any material. In doing so to steel it makes the steel brittle. So a different, more expensive material is needed, or spend more on maintenance. If hydrogen isn't available in all areas of the country, a FCV is less useful than a BEV. Toyota just announced they have lithium batteries with 5x the energy density. A leaf could go 365 miles with such a battery. Every garage has an outlet. A methanol powered plug in hybrid with a 100 mile AER can be be available before FCVs move out of southern California.

 

Trollbait,

That's a lot of FUDs. One hydrogen station can refuel a lot more vehicle than an EV station simply due to the superior refueling speed.

There are a lot of progress going in Japan and Europe.

Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Hyundai and Toyota Join Forces for Hydrogen | eMercedesBenz

Japan’s METI to Request 30 Billion Yen for Hydrogen Supply System for Fuel Cell Vehicles

 

Bulky, yes. But it should be much lighter than the battery pack. Toyota's FCV-R concept is a 4 seater (but said to have a huge trunk space), so we'll have to see how the production version come out.

I believe the reliability issue has been solved. I remember reading a DOE validation report and their goal has been met.

For the same range? I am not sure. 265 miles Model S is $85k.

 

Wrong question since hydrogen $2 per kg price is comparable to gasoline $4 per gallon. Since both are fossil fuel derived, they are neither sustainable and both a threat to health, economy and national security.

The real question is how much will mass produced solar power created hydrogen cost. Since the fossil fuel use, natural gas and oil, are imported fossil fuels with the economic and national security baggage, we do have $1T per year (cost of fossil fuel imports and military costs to secure them) to spend building the solar powered hydrogen generation. End result, likely $4 kg.

Then oil supply is short, gasoline prices rise, gasoline supply becomes scarce, import costs and military costs rise. A reminder why we need to transition to hydrogen.

Same as it cost them to build new gasoline stations.

Correct and is the main reason hydrogen fuel cell powered cars win out over EV's, the recharge issue limits EV's, the reason you see Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, the car makers of the future, working on hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles vs. EV's.

The Honda pilot program in LA shows it all works from hydrogen production to the filling station and that the car has range, power and room. Only issue now is national vision and leadership and spend the $1T a year we waste supporting oil use and use it constructively to build out and on the existing hydrogen production and distribution system.

 

Honda clarity is said to cost $1M, so yes. Once both are in production a price comparison will make more sense.

 

Toyota Prius is said to cost $1M at same stage of development. Good news for hydrogen power development.

 

Both Toyota and Hyundai are targeting $50k FCEV in 2015. I don't know about the target price for FCEVs from Nissan, Mercedes-Benz or Honda.

By 2015, Tesla would have the smaller affordable EV so we'll have to see if the 265 miles version will be $50k. Their supercharger network may be more widespread than H2 filling stations. It'll be exciting to see how things play out. The potential of FCVs can't be ignored.

 

Which part exactly?

I know current tech stations take about the same time as a gas station, but they are costly. How many charge stations can be built for every hydrogen pump? How many extra hydrogen stations need to be built to prevent refueling anxiety since people can't refuel at home.

From the METI article.
"The question METI is now addressing is how the hydrogen will be stored, distributed and supplied to these stations. An efficient, low-cost hydrogen supply system will be necessary for the ‘pump price’ to prove attractive to consumers, which in turn will be necessary for the construction of further hydrogen stations on a fully commercial basis."

There isn't breakdown on how much of the budget is for this, but they are requesting $400 million. And Japan is tiny compared to the US. So the issues of shipping hydrogen are real.

The tanks aren't light weights. I believe the goal is 5% weight. That is, of the weight of a filled tank, 5% is the hydrogen. So a filled 5kg tank will weigh 100kg, or 220lbs. The available tanks might only be 3% weight.

Lighter than battery, but what about their lifespan? CNG tanks have expiration(end of service might be the correct term) dates. Hydrogen tanks are at higher pressures and thus stress. They are pricey, too. Between the tanks and fuel cell, I don't see FCVs holding up their resale.

Batteries degrade over time too. However, repairing lost capacity doesn't necessarily mean replacing the entire battery, and the loss may not have to be fixed if the car still meets the owners needs. The replaced batteries also have to potential of finding a reuse as a UPS.

Fuel cells have potential, but they are pushing ahead before addressing the issues with hydrogen. What if hydride storage moves out of the lab soon? Then we'll have a beta max and VHS situation in with fuel cell cars. Natural gas or methanol powered fuel cells need more work, but their stations can also serve similiarly fueled ICEs of various stripes.

 

The 100 vehicle Honda FCX Clarity hydrogen fuel cell vehicle fleet operating in LA with hydrogen pumps at filling stations next to gasoline pumps answers all the questions and answers them positively for hydrogen.

Only issue now is scaling up as we did for gasoline 100 years ago.

Key of course is hydrogen production via solar hydrolysis so we have a non-polluting sustainable domestically produced fuel supply.

 

That is likely the wholesale price to produce, and doesn't include transport to the pump.

Really? A tank for storing compressed gas costs the same as one for a liquid? How about the difference in the actual pumps? Or the fact the hydrogen pumps require more electronics and cables to talk to the car. Perhaps even the safety features. Colorless, odorless gas is harder to detect for a human than a smelly liquid.

Gasoline was competing with horses then, and was available before the car. It is also much easier, and cheaper to transport. Then there are already outlets in every garage.

It isn't even certain that hydrogen gas will be the final fuel for fuel cells.