My Duinomite Mega Canview V4 equivalent Project

I dont' have a real good handle on the control structure, but I'm talking about the basic PSD operation as simulated here:
Toyota Prius - Power Split Device

My understanding is that the Prius will typically run "true EV" (ICE start delay mode) up to 34mph. If the SOC/CDL limits are amenable the it can run in "stealth" EV mode up to 42mph. At 42mph MG1 has reached its spec limit of 6500rpm for a gen 2. There is as I recall an opinion that it can be run up to 10k rpm based on the early toyota PiP prototypes behavior, but the official "known safe" limit is 6500rpm. Above 42mph the ICE has to spin to keep MG1 from going beyond 6500 rpm. This is basically the "warp stealth" EV mode again seen if SOC/CDL and terrain conditions are amenable. I've never really understood how they spin the ICE without fuel, but my guess is you have to put a certain amount of "forward" current into MG1 while its spinning backwards to hold its rpm constant and consequently spinning the ICE almost like the starter mode but w/o fuel. This makes warp stealth less efficient than stealth, as you are wasting a certain amount of current into MG1.

My assumption is that OOG mode works pretty much just like warp stealth mode above 42mph, only w/o the same SOC/CDL restrictions? So the question then is depending on what commands you are modifying to prevent the ICE from starting, will the system still work the same way? IE will MG1 still be driven to maintain its rpms and spin the ICE (if that's how it works).

Don't know if that makes any sense

Rob

 

In oog mode the ice does not spin.
You have a speed limit if around 90 kmph.

-Tapatalk

 

There is also torque sensor on the ICE and when the ICE is spinning and not using any gas you will get negative value. I think if your CAN view is showing 0 rpm then the ICE is not spinning.

What you describe, when MG1 is also acting like generator, this behavior can be provoked in every Prius with B mode and steep downhill (battery at full charge). You can control ICE rpm with gentle push of the gas pedal on the downhill. Or letting your foot of the pedals at higher speed.

Maximum values of MG1 are said to be around 10.000 rpm, the car normally will never go over 6.500.

 

Lopezjm2001.

Using a gen 2, in OOG mode ICE don't spin. This is what we read on the can bus.
As you said max speed is 85 km/h then MG1 rpm is near 8500 (in D mode). This MG1 rpm is also read on can bus using a sollicited pid. 8500 rpm is a software limit.
As everybody knows MG1 max speed is 10 000 rpm. This happens when ICE has to send a lot of power to MG2 (something like 33 kW), so during a heavy acceleration.
I don't know if MG1 can spin at 10 000 rpm permanently. May be some bearing problem in long term ?
So you could drive up to 100-110 km/h without ice spinning.

But 85 km/h is not the maximum possible in OOG mode !!
I do a drive test going down a hill, at 85 km/h, leave D mode and select N mode. My car speed increase and of course MG1 rpm increase too. (I wait until speed decrease under 85 km/h in order to go back to D mode.)

6500 rpm was a MG1 gen 1 limit and gave 66 km/h threshold.
In gen 2, this is more a hybrid_ecu threshold than a MG1 limit.

 

Good comments all! Lopez, your thoughts on the second controller seem to make sense. Guessing that's why PIS does it as an add on ECM to their main controller. Comments on OOG mode are interesting, and seem to make sense in terms of limiting the speed rather than spinning the ICE to keep MG1 in bounds. This would seem to be further evidence that PIS is not using OOG mode for their high speed EV mode, eliminating the OOG speed limit. I think that takes us back to where we were, depending on what messages are spoofed to achieve high speed EV the hybrid controller may take care of the MG1 rpm limit on its own (if it looks more like warp stealth), or it may need some help from add on controller if you are depriving it of the info it needs to keep MG1 safe.

In warp stealth does the CAN-View seem to accurately report ICE rpms when its spinning but not running?

Rob

 

i jjust found this device

its a nice and not to expensif touchscreen lcd with a serial connection

Welcome - vizic technologies

maybe something to think about.

i got a 4 wires lcd on order ( from DX for just like say 10 dollars ) and hope to get that working with the duinomite as a cheap and small ( place it in the little box beneet the radio ) replacement for a touchscreen.
with external buttons like PHEV on and off basic operation would be possible.

but first i have to get my arduino to work as a BMS so i can use the duinomite for this.
currenly i am still waiting for my second 4 relay board so i can bench test the arduino basic BMS/charger control.

 

well i want it to be placed somewhere people can not see it when they want to break into my car ;-)

no i always have to take the lilliput screen out ot fthe car with me when i park it somewhere.

but first i hope to get a 2x16 or 4x20 lcd screen working on the duinomite ( stil not recieved it )
i want to place it right here.

behind the dark glass plastic cover

it would be a nice hidden finisch with some buttons on the side to switch phev.

 

...

 

yes only the scangauge got a nice housing haha this is the bare lcd screen with board.n
its a lot cheaper then a touch lcd screen its easy to hide and it wil give some basic info like voltage amps and if your in PHEV or normal mode.
a switch beside it for phev mode and for DTC reset and basic functions are there for a nice setup i hope.

 

here is a good video that shows the gearset in a simple way

 

also intressing it seems that the oil pomp also runs when MG1 is spinning.
look at 23:55 min
so you dont need to have the ice running one's every time and would also explain wy nobody to date got any trouble with that even going back years with the calcars guys that also where already doing far les ice running.

 

FWD - Excellent videos, thanks for posting. However, they both make it quite explicit that the oil pump is driven off of the ICE engine. For example in the second video at around 6:20 or so "anytime the engine is spinning this is spinning".

Later on, at 23:55 they do say that the oil pump is spinning when MG1 is spinning or the ICE is spinning. However, the job of MG1 is to spin the engine (when acting as a starter motor). So the oil pump is spinning because MG1 is spinning the ICE.

It's important to differentiate between "spinning" and "running". In the above (and all other discussion I've read) "spinning" refers to the engine being spun but not producing power whereas running means that the engine is operating (suck, squeeze, bang, blow - the 4 cycles of an engine) and consuming fuel to produce power.

If we're going to want to run on electric only mode for extended periods of time (and I'm talking weeks on end of commuting - not a single run or two) then we'll want to spin the engine so that we can lubricate the transmission. I don't know if anyone has done a side-by-side tear down of a CalCar transaxle compared to a regular one. That might highlight a difference in wear levels.

Also, just because a transaxle has not been lubricating properly doesn't mean "instant death" like it might with a combustion engine because the temperatures and speeds are different. Also, if those CalCars do high speed runs with the engine turning then the transaxle will lubricate. I don't know how long a transaxle would go if the pump never run. But if the Toyota engineers intended for a pump to lubricate the transaxle then it seems to make sense to make sure it operates...

BTW - I think almost all modern cars (if not every single one?) use a hall sensor (or similar) to sense engine speed. It used to be they would drive the tachometer from the firing of the engine (effectively feedback from the distributor). This would mean that you wouldn't measure any RPM if the motor was spinning but not running. This is just an "interesting" side point - I don't think it has any impact on what we're doing.

 

I love this gadget - I could play with it all day! I saw that a year or so ago when I first started the research on this (before abandoning things for a while). I couldn't remember the link - so thanks for the post!

I don't think that's right - the MG1 can be acting as a generator (and thus producing voltage) when MG2 is spinning. MG2 is what is attached (via a chain, some carrier gears and a differential) to the driving wheels.

I agree with this statement. However, the important piece missing is that in this situation ICE rpm is zero. If ICE rpm is allowed to be higher than zero then MG2 can spin faster without forcing MG1 > 6500 rpm. If ICE spins at ~1200 rpm then MG2 can spin fast enough for a road speed of 70mph and MG1 is still < 6500 rpm.

How does one spin the ICE without burning gas? That must have to do with the smarts in the inverter. In my mental model I imagine it as a more mechanical system with MG1 "slipping" such that it doesn't go over 6500 rpm and in turn this causes the engine to turn. The power to make this happen is coming from the battery pack and from MG1 because MG1 is acting as a generator (spinning "backwards" in the above gadget). Clever stuff, and I have absolutely no clue of the EE theory or the mechanical state of the engine (pumping losses and the like)*.

I'm just hoping that if I set the appropriate parameters on the CAN bus that we can make this happen. I know that pEEf achieved it. To me this is the key that makes pEEf's approach the preferred approach and is why I'm doing yaPIP to recreate his work.

* BTW, I do know enough that turning over an engine for a long period of time takes a bunch of energy. Because the Toyota engineers didn't optimize for this situation it might be that this is terribly inefficient (i.e. sucks the battery down more quickly). On the other hand, I do know that modern cars are pretty effective at coasting by operating their valve trains differently. Or at least I think so - once again this is an area where I know very little (just enough to be dangerous?!)

Another point which this brings up is that 70mph is apparently when the electric motor runs out of power. That's just the limit of the amount of power MG2 can produce by itself (again, Toyota didn't optimize for a situation they never intended the car to be used in). 70 mph isn't a mechanical limit, it's probably not a software limit either.

 

in OOG mode the Mg1 is also spinning so if mg1 is spinning then the pomp can also spin.
but maybe your right ( and also loooking at the video ) that the way they are spinning = what is spinning also and it what dirrection.. thats part of how the gearset works .
so mg1 can be spinning without the ice or oil pomp spining i geuss.

think someone needs to make a video inside the motor compartment to see if the fuel pomp turns at any point.
maybe when breaking using B mode? it turns? when in OOG mode.