I AM SO ANGRY re: oil change!!!

Curiousgb · Aug 10, 2012

edthefox5 said: ↑

So the car is not on a jackstand just on a jack?
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Usually on my floor jack. I am not under the car.

Curiousgb · Aug 10, 2012

maestro8 said: ↑

A couple general rules in this vein:
1) If you find you need a lot of strength to do something, you're probably doing it wrong... and you might break something in the process.
2) If you are using a lot of strength to do something, you're not using the right tool(s).

Let me get this straight. You're greasing the bolts that are holding the wheels onto your car... so they come out easier? Can you paint a big red X on your car so we all know to stay away from you?

Yes, many people have been able to survive driving around with greased wheel bolts, but that doesn't make it a great idea. Be careful torquing those wheel bolts (you are torquing them, yes?) Manufacturer torque specs are generally for dry threads, and greased threads require less torque.
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I will gladly comply with your request.

I did a little more research on this and here is what I found...
The general consensus seems to be that the use of anti seize on vehicle lug nuts that are properly torqued, is not going to contribute to the lug nuts loosening. It seems wherever I posted, more people reported using anti seize on lug nuts for years without any problems, than people advised against it.
It also seems to be considered that the application of lubricants in general to properly torqued fasteners will not contribute to their loosening. It is generally considered that traverse movement is what causes fasteners to loosen Bolt Science Web Site.
However, it probably makes good sense that the anti seize be very sparingly applied to *only* the lug stud thread and *not* the contact or interface point between the end of the lug nut and the rim. The question of whether or not to decrease the manufacturers torque specifications to account for the application of anti seize is debatable, but if you can keep the anti seize off of the contact point between the end of the lug nut where it seats in the rim, you are probably better off staying with the manufacturers specified torque. The following information will explain why.

I found some info regarding wheel stud failure here...
Bolt Science - Wheel Stud Failures

The link directly below goes to a page with some interesting information regarding the difference in axial loads (preload) obtained when coating *only* the threads with anti seize, and when coating both the threads *and* under the bolt head or nut. Apparently, if the information is reliable, there is a huge change in axial load when you coat both the threads and under the bolt head or nut, as compared with hardly any change in axial load when you apply anti seize to *only* the threads and not under the bolt head or nut.
What torque wrenches measure
If you look at the table / charts provided near the bottom of the page at the link directly above, using anti seize on the *thread only* shows slightly less axial load than using no lubricant at all. This is probably due to the wide variation in friction of identical bolts with dry un-lubricated threads, which can be as much as +/- 25% to +/- 50%.. See the following links for more information.
FAST-DAQ. Measure bolt tension more reliably. Torque wrench versus tension wrench.
http://www.rstechltd.com/TITERITE.PDF
http://www.rstechltd.com/Advanced%20Torque%20Auditing-FTI%20Oct%202001.pdf
http://www.rstechltd.com/Technical_articles.htm (some more articles here)
http://www.hexagon.de/dose/dose-1e.pdf
Bolt Preload Calculation
They say that about 90% of the input torque of the torque wrench is consumed by friction, with 50% of the friction being between the bolt head and mounting surface, 40% of the friction being in the threads, & only 10% being the stretch of the bolt which produces the axial force or preload.
The article at mechanicsupport.com references another article titled "Failure of bolts in helicopter main rotor drive plate assembly due to improper application of lubricant" by N. Eliaz, G. Gheorghiu, H. Sheinkopf, O. Levi, G. Shemesh, A. Mordecai, H. Artzi, Published in Engineering Failure Analysis #10, pages 443-451
Here is a link to the article published in engineering failure analysis.
http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~neliaz/Papers_Files/C27.pdf
Regarding the article at the link directly above, it seems it was not the use of anti seize that was causing failure of the helicopter rotor bolts, but rather the improper application of anti seize that was causing failure, namely applying anti seize under the bolt head or nut instead of only applying it to the fastener threads. Applying anti seize under the bolt heads and/or nuts increased axial loads substantially. It also appears Tightening by turning the bolt instead of, as specified, the nut, resulted in more torque going into bolt tension rather than being absorbed by bolt head friction.
Would it be unreasonable to require engineers to design all *critical* threaded joints & related components (wheel lugs, helicopter rotors, etc. anything where a life may be at stake) to be able to withstand the maximum axial loads produced by torquing lubricated threads to specs with a torque wrench ? The lubricants vary, so they should design for the lube that produces the lowest friction.
It seems anti seize and/or lube on threaded joints is a good idea in most cases, plus applying the lube produces more consistent and accurate transmission of torque, so it would appear to make sense to always design for a lubricated joint.
I have also read that research has shown that not lubricating the thread and nut face will result in the friction value increasing on re-tightening which subsequently reduces the preload for a given torque value. This would be especially important regarding lug nuts, which are being removed & re-tightened frequently for tire rotations.
It seems all torque specifications should specify both dry and lubricated threads for reference, & if lubrication or anti seize is required or recommended, it's exact application method should be specified. Although ideally the joint would be designed to withstand a worse case scenario application of lube on both the threads and under the bolt head.
At the http://www.boltscience.com website, they say that it is actually transverse joint movement that causes loosening of threaded fasteners. In the case of a wheel, friction between the wheel and the hub prevent traverse movement. The friction is generated by the axial force generated by the torqued lug nuts.
Because of traverse movement causing joint loosening, it's probably best to not use anti seize or any lube on the back side of the rim where it contacts the rotors, hub, or brake drums.
My feeling is the benefit of using anti seize on lug nut studs outweigh any concerns of problems it may cause. I do think it is a good idea to apply the anti seize very sparingly to the lug studs, and to try to not get any anti seize on the contact point between the end of the lug & where it seats in the rim lug recesses.
The last time I used anti seize on lug nuts, I think the way I did it was to smear a small dab of anti seize on the end of the lug stud, then run a lug nut on the stud by hand back and forth until a thin film of anti seize covers most all the stud (almost up to the rim). I ran the nut back and forth on the stud enough times so that it did not push a glob of anti seize between the end of the lug and where the lug seats in the rim when I was ready to finally tighten the lugs down. I wiped off any anti seize at the lug end as required.
If anti seize is used however, it seems wise to be extra careful to make sure that any shop you take your vehicle too only uses a hand torque wrench to tighten the lugs to the correct torque.
The main question that remains is whether to torque the lugs to manufacturers specs or reduce the torque by a percentage to compensate for any increase in axial loads due to the anti seize. Based on the information given above, & my experience, my guess is to just torque the lugs to manufacturers specs, especially if you use the anti seize very sparingly and can keep it off the end of the lug nuts where they seat with the rims.
This has worked for me and I think the fact that it did not warp my rotors is a clue that the axial loads are not too outrageous. Shops warp rotors all the time with power impact wrenches, and they might turn or replace your rotors, but they don't replace the lug studs as a precaution for the possibility of them being overstressed by the impact which warped the rotors.
This reasoning may not apply to all vehicles, especially larger tucks, but for most pickups and cars, I would think that if you have not warped the rotors and you do not feel any brake pulsations, then you probably have not overstressed the lug nuts & studs to a point of any real concern. Impact wrenches break lug studs off all the time, I doubt anyone has broken a lug stud off with a hand torque wrench, whether coated with anti seize or not. I doubt any rotors have been warped with a hand torque wrench, anti seize on lug studs or not.
John
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stevemcelroy · Aug 21, 2012

I see that there are a ton of responses and this might have already been suggested, but have you thought about bringing it back to the place that has done your oil changes in the past. Have them do one last change and make sure that you tell them not to over-tighten the bolt. Test that the bolt moves afterwards and then you will be set for oil changes in the future.

As for the supplies that you have bought - either return them to Autozone or just hold on to them for a few months and use them for the next oil change.

Julia2001 said: ↑

I studied the wonderful PriusChat posts and videos over and over again so that I could change my own oil. I reviewed them so much I could change the oil in my sleep.

I went to Autozone and bought everything I would need for my first-ever Prius oil change, including Mobil 1 synthetic oil and an extra expensive Mobil 1 filter. And yes a package of new washers! Got all the tools ready.

AND I CAN NOT LOOSEN THE OIL PAN BOLT!

I am so angry about this. I realize that because weigh about 110-112 pounds soaking wet I don't have the strength most of you have, but those bolts are not supposed to be tightened like that according to what I've read on this site. I think I tore a neck muscle trying to turn my wrench.

And YES I am using a 14mm. And YES I am turning counter-clockwise. I even squirted some Liquid Wrench on that thing to try to loosen it. It won't budge.

I know there's nothing any of you can do about this, but I guess I am just venting here unless anyone has a suggestion?

Thanks for the vent!

Julia
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uart · Aug 21, 2012

stevemcelroy said: ↑

As for the supplies that you have bought - either return them to Autozone or just hold on to them for a few months and use them for the next oil change.
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Steve, she's done it successfully already and moved on already to other DIY maintenance projects!

usnavystgc · Aug 21, 2012

And now she's giving us advice (lol).

Julia2001 · Aug 21, 2012

Am not.

dorunron · Aug 21, 2012

Julia2001 said: ↑

Am not.
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Daves09prius · Aug 21, 2012

dorunron said: ↑

cheap torque wrench: 1/2" Torque Wrench
socket: Socket, Impact, 1/2 Drive, 13/16 In, 6 Point - Impact Sockets - Sockets - 4AB67 : Grainger Industrial Supply
Look around at flea markets, garage sales, pawn shops etc. or go to Sears and buy the socket by itself. A 1/2" drive 13/16" socket is used with a 1/2" drive rachet, breaker bar, or torque wrench. It is used to tighten or loosen bolt heads that have a 13/16" size. The lug nuts on your Prius are 13/16". I hope that makes sense to you. Also, you don't need the "impact" type socket like the link above is. The links are examples for you.
If you don't want to spend money, skip the torque wrench/socket and just use the four way. It will be sufficient if you put your weight on it. Ron (dorunron)
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Hey Julia!
A inexpensive torque wrench can be purchased at Wal-Mart for under $50, the correct amount of torque on a lug-nut is 80lbs. It's a shockingly low torque requirement. Put more than that and you're risking breaking the stud. I know because I snapped a rear stud when I was rotating my tires. I didn't have a torque wrench and just threw caution to the wind... I thought the same thing, I'll just tighten it down and everything will be okay... yeah not this time! I was able to replace the stud myself but I didn't like driving anywhere with that lug nut missing! I highly recommend the torque wrench if you are going to be changing or rotating your own tires.

Here's a link to a youtube video on how to use a torque wrench:

Julia2001 · Aug 21, 2012

Hey, Daves09Prius! Thanks for the helpful post and the really great video!

I appreciate it very much.

Julia

I AM SO ANGRY re: oil change!!!

Curiousgb New Member

Curiousgb New Member

stevemcelroy Active Member

uart Senior Member

usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

Julia2001 Member

dorunron Senior Member

Daves09prius Active Member

Julia2001 Member

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I AM SO ANGRY re: oil change!!!

Curiousgb New Member

Curiousgb New Member

stevemcelroy Active Member

uart Senior Member

usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

Julia2001 Member

dorunron Senior Member

Daves09prius Active Member

Julia2001 Member