Ford brings hybrid, EV work in-house to beat Toyota

Absolutely, it is first generation. It will get better.

The ICE certainly is not crappy in the unreliable or inefficient sense, but it is under powered. It was chosen to be cheap not optimal Since this a thread of ford's hybrid system, we should compare it to the ford 2L 141hp Atkinson one in the ford. The more powerful ford engine and hybrid bits hustle the c-max at 47/47 with 141 hp (no mountain mode needed). Part of the better mileage might be the psd, but much of it is a more efficient engine. There are rumors of a voltec 1.5 in 2013 or 2014 to put a better engine/generator motor combination into the volt.

The ford system seems a baby step better than toyota's though. WSJ mentioned in tangibles, toyota's hybrid reputation, owner loyalty, etc as reasons Ford needs a much better system than toyota to gain big hybrid market share fast. This does get them in the game, and manufacturing hybrid components in america instead of japan should give them a cost advantage. Toyota knows this, and hybrid manufacturing may move to north america soon.

 

No one will mistake me as a GM fan, and overall they tend to make cars with below average reliability. My reason for anticipating early retirement however, has more to do with current gen EVs and large battery PHEVs in general: I am just skeptical that the batteries will last much past 150k miles and I doubt owners are going to find the replacement cost low enough to put the car back on the road.

The Prius has two amazing advantages that magazines like CR (let alone the doofus 'enthusiast' magazines) do not grasp:
1. Priuschat (an extremely strong and supportive community.)
2. Traction battery repair or replacement cost that is cheaper than a conventional transmission, with failure rates much less than conventional transmissions.

Prius is proving itself to be a 300k+ mile car, and likely longer if well maintained and fixed along the way for perhaps 10% additional of its original cost. EVs and large battery PHEVs are toys for the affluent by and large unless they are bought for HOV access. Unsubsidized, they are 3-4 times the TCO of a Prius if I am correct, and a budgeted consumer would be silly to presume otherwise unless a 15 year track record proves long term reliability.

 

GM-Volt.com seems to be just as strong and supportive of the Volt as Priuschat is for the Prius. MyNissanLeaf seems to be the equivalnet for Leaf owners.

A new 16kWh Volt battery is listed at $3000 from GM. I don't know of any DIY or third party rebuilds yet for the Volt as I have seen for the Prius. I am sure that once the demand develops there will be.

The Thermal Management System and conservative use of the battery in the Volt should ensure life beyond 150K miles, time will tell. My Prius just hit 100K and I'm guessing that translates to about 60K equivalent on the ICE.

 

That is an obvious error. Call up a GM dealer and ask for an installed quote.

Addendum: Done for you. The $3000 is just for the enclosure LOL

 

Of course every dealer will have a different "labor for installation" quote, same at Toyota.

Here is the part listing.

2011 CHEVROLET VOLT Parts - GM Parts - Genuine Replacement GM Parts - New GM Parts

 

John, see my addendum in post #25

 

It seems $4100 installed is the what dealers are charging to replaced damaged batteries.

$4100 repair over a road pebble

What is "under powered"? It seems to propel the vehicle just fine and in my experience, is only called upon less than 20% of the time. If anything I think I would prefer it was lighter, although if I were that concerned I guess I would keep the gas tank at 1/3 rather than full.

 

I read the thread -- the dealer was throwing out numbers before they even evaluated the car. Moreover, the $4100 included a $1100 radiator repair. Think about it for a moment: The traction battery enclosure costs $3000; do you really think the batteries are free ?

A bit of googling says that Li-x batteries cost the auto manufacturer $400 - $600 a kwh. Add retail mark-up, enclosure and installation time -- what do you get ?

One other point to ponder: a dealer installed new traction battery for the Prius is about $3000. For a 1.8 kwh nominal capacity battery. Rest assured that installation of a Prius traction battery is trivial compared to the Volt.

 

Underpowered as it needs more help from the battery than if the system was well designed. From a user perspective this causes the need for mountain mode, and slightly worse charge sustain fuel economy. If you are using the engine only 20% of the time it doesn't hurt that much, but I expect gm to improve on it soon.

If you downsized the ford 2L to 1.4 to be lighter, it would still be 100 hp instead of 75hp, the atkinson cycle would also give the ability to stay efficient over a wider power range than the current volt ice. GM definitely has room to improve the ice in an update.

 

Since I have not needed "Mountain Mode" and don't expect to as I don't plan to take the Volt to Hawaii or Pike's Peak, I am more than taken care of by the current configuration. If I was using the hybrid mode 100% of the time like my Prius then the fuel economy in hybrid mode would be more relevant, at 20% it's not. I am only getting about 30mpg in hybrid mode, mainly because it tends to be restricted to 2-3 miles per occurance. Others have been experiencing 45+mpg while in hybrid mode, which seems comparable to my 2007 Prius at 48mpg.

I'm not sure why you think a battery enclosure is $3000. Is that the case for the Prius?

 

You asked why I said under powered, I answered. I think GM will improve it, and had time to market considerations. Because its an EREV type phev, the ice doesn't matter as much. As I said in my original post, it most definitely is not a crappy engine. The drive train won a number of awards, and the car got out 2 years before ford's energi. That said there are things it can improve, and the energi's 2L atkinson is a better ice No insult to the volt intended.

btw: my prius is a gen III, and yes to me its underpowered.

 

I think SageBrush has me punchy

In my short experience with the Volt, 3000+ miles, there are a couple of other things I would rather see improved. Upgrading the charger to 7.5kw being the highest followed by another 3kwh of available battery when weather conditions are supportive.

I like the Volt as a EV first and foremost. If the PIP had a 35+ mile EV range I would have probably gone that route, being a 20+ year Toyota biggot (Diesel Land Cruiser, 2x Prius, Previa, Sienna, Lexus lx450, Lexus Gx470, Lexus LS400)

 

I am finished with this discussion; you are either incapable or unwilling to grasp the obvious, or have decided to descend into trolldom.

 

On topic ha ha, I'd like to see Ford really get ahead in terms of where they are with hybrid technology. More competition is good, and I really don't want to buy a Ford hybrid until they have more in-house experience. Licensing someone else's technology doesn't really count as experience in my books.

I have a newer Ford EcoBoost vehicle and that's an amazing engine. Too bad it's not a hybrid powertrain ;-)

 

Ford and toyota official story is that their own separate designs (escape versus the hyhi synergy drives) were so similar to each other's that they simply cross licensed. I'm just sayin' . . . . . If you damn toyota or ford for licensing - then you necessarily have to damn the other.

SGH-I717R ? 2

 

Believe it or not. Your Volt would emit more CO2 using Texas electricity (and gas) than a Prius using just the gas.

EPA beyond tailpipe emission site said Volt in Texas zip code would emit 260 gram of CO2 per mile. It assumes 64% of the miles on EV and 36% on gas. A regular 50 MPG Prius emits 222 g/mi.

If you have Prius PHV, it would emit 210 g/mi in Texas.

As you can see, MPG has nothing to do with carbon footprint or being green. If your goal was to reduce foreign oil dependency and increase carbon footprint, you are doing good with the Volt.

 

Yup, first gen in-house but the hybrid transaxle (like HSD) is so simple. The reliability should be good even for the 1st gen. There is like 5 moving parts. The Lithium battery is also from Panasonic and I expect high quality.

I wonder if Ford is using Denso Lithium BMS or in-house.

Ford has a few patents so their hybrid system recognizes EPA test cycle and optimizes for it. This is part of the reason their EPA numbers are pretty high. As for the real-world MPG, we'll have to wait and find out from ownership experience.

 

Hmmm, considering the electricity for MY Volt is from a wind farm I'll choose NOT to believe.

BTW, thanks for your work putting together the Prius PIDs I use with Torque.

 

For the record, part# 20979876 Volt battery asm., drive motor replacement. Retail price=$2994.64

 

I was saying the volt was first generation. For ford the psd is 3rd generation. Toyota brought it in house with the gen III prius, Ford just brought it in house. Ford should be able to make them fine. Both toyota and ford had availability issues.

Ford is buying cells from Panasonic, but assembling the batteries in house. This is a first time for them. The cells in the energi appear to be the same ones as in the prius phv. If there are problems, both toyota and ford will need to address them. I expect them to be reliable.

Ford and Toyota have both been issued hundreds of patents since their patent share. Both companies do things to do better on the epa test.