Toyota plans to sell fuel cell car by 2015

Why would we need to wait for rising seas from global warming to use wave power? Don't we have waves now?

 

I have no idea. I wasn't the one that sugested it, only was explaining that it could work, but doesn't make sense.

 

Or tidal power.

But three replies got me back where I started.

 

Far more efficient to store the electricity in batteries rather than hydrogen.
However, for the unfortunate souls that have to travel great distances and prefer not to use a hybrid or PHEV, hydrogen fuel cells do have a place.

 

I understand. I am guessing the person putting it forth was making a global warming joke.

Here is DOE's take on three major ocean power techonologies
Energy Savers: Exploring Ways to Use Ocean Energy

They don't make much sense in the continental US. In hawaii and other remote islands these things along with solar make a lot of sense. Hydrogen makes no sense there. Since islands are relatively small EVs are practicle. Unfortunately most power is produced through oil generators. Switching to ocean, wind, and solar biogass and biomass makes environmental and financial sense.

 

Because it's a lousy energy carrier that diverts funding from better options.

In order to carry enough hydrogen for a reasonable range, you need need heavy, expensive, high pressure tanks which will need to be replaced every 5 to 15 years. The tanks may be lighter than a battery, but a FC vehicle needs to carry one those also. If the pumps are anything like NG ones, the 'quick' refueling will leave those used to liquid fuels disappointed. The NG Civic can take up to 20 mins to fill up.

But first, the hydrogen needs to be made. Electrolysis is inefficient. More total miles will be gained by putting the electricity into batteries than hydrogen. It can be stripped from NG, but it makes more sense to use the NG directly. Natural gas's tank requirements aren't as steep as hydrogen's. So the tanks are cheaper, but still big. It can also be pumped through pipelines to where it is needed.

Fuel cells themselves don't actually need straight hydrogen. Granted the R&D isn't as advanced, but fueling them directly from NG and alcohols are possible.

 

Toyota is only into hydrogen for free reserch dollars. They already KNOW that the hydrogen highways leads to a dead end:
GM, Toyota Doubtful on Fuel Cells' Mass Use - WSJ.com
BTW - it's not folks here, that have negativity around hydrogen, it's just rational thinking. Have you read how many critics there are?
L.A. Times: "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars." Duh. Time for Obama and Chu to kill the program. | ThinkProgress

Hydrogen highway is a non-starter - Race to the Bottom - Opinions - June 12, 2008 - Sacramento News & Review
.

 

Solar farms in the hot, sunny rising oceans would produce all the hydrogen fuel we need. 50% of Americans live on the coasts so an easy infrastructure to build.

 

I take a NGV way before I take a fuel cell car. NGV is cleaner than any no BEV cars now. Cheaper than gas. And no need to send our kids to pump gas.

And with those advantages, the infrastructure is still not available. What makes anyone think that fuel cell will be an exception?

 

Corwyn, I appologize for trying to answer before, I had been ignoring PS, and this response shows why, so I did not understand the context of your question.

PS,
Why in the world would putting solar farms in the ocean make any kind of sense? Why would concentrated populations on the coast make it advantageous to build something so stupid? You do realize the oceans are rising at such a slow rate that wave and tidal energy are many orders of magnitudes higher, and are actually usable but much more expensive than other renewable.

 

We heard the same thing when they were investing in hybrid's years ago. We heard the same thing when Musk started up Tesla. We hear the same thing now about Toyota's all electric RAV4, Fords FEV's but all are good investments in clean energy transportation.

Well...my goodness if Dan Niel the LA Times "car guy" quoted above is against hydrogen it's all over. Did the editorial cartoonist weigh in also?

Better to look at Honda's successful FCX Clarity hydrogen vehicles and how well 10 year old hydrogen technology and infrastructure is working. Facts on the ground.

Toyota should be encouraged to invest in fuel cell alternatives and it is encouraging that they are doing it.

 

EDIT:
oops - same here
SGH-I717R ? 2

 

In the US, the biggest cheer leaders for hydrogen in the near future is california's CARB. Just about every other legitimate american source either wants fuel cell research or for small uses like power buffering, busses, and in door vehicles where refueling infrastructure is not needed. These are all legitamate. Who knows once things are further along there might be a reason for infrastructure.

Two vehicles illustrate why if we build them, they won't come. These are the fusion energi that will be sold in the near future, and the tesla X which is out in about 1 1/2 years. The fusion energi is an affordable PHEV, it should be around $35K before tax credits and uses less than 1/3 the gasoline than its regular ice version. It can refuel anywhere, not just at dedicated hydrogen stations in a few cities, and can recharge from a 110VAC outlet. This is the most popular category of car, midsize, and there are not really any compromises. The reason most won't buy one is price, but there is no way for a fc vehicle to cost less without huge subsidies. The Tesla X is a no compromizes SUV/minivan. For about $80K before tax credits you can get an 85kwh pack that has over a 200 mile range. It does take a long time to recharge, but there will be more chargers than a hydrogen infrastructure for at least 10 years. Again unless that hydrogen vehicle gets much higher subsidies, no car company can sell one at close to the same price. If you are using renewable electricity both cars will go more than twice as far as a hydrogen vehicle.

 

The same people we can thank for Prius, Tesla, Volt...interesting.

 

Ah, I understand. Sorry about the confusion.

 

Carb actively put rules in place against both the prius and the volt in favor of hydogen cars. So absolutely wrong there. Please buy a clue.

Carb did nothing to help musk at tesla. Tesla has been helped by the federal government.

They are the ones that had an ev mandate that got the ev1 built, then changed it to fuel cells and got the ev1 crushed. Since then they keep changing the rules, but in ways that seem to push back phevs at every change. A realistic hybrid stategy instead of the ZEV mandate would have done much more good. Now when the facts about PHEVs are out, they are pushing FC cells and diverting money to them. Its not as if the former head of carb moved to a fuel cell lobbying group. Oh wait that is exactly what happened.

 

CARB's push for non-polluting vehicles is why we have a Volt, Prius and most especially the Tesla. The current RAV4 all electric is criticized for being built to meet CARB's regulatory environment. Without the leadership of CA and CARB on emissions and high tech alternatives, we would be even further behind in terms of alternative fuel cars. CARB pushed the envelope that is being filled with Tesla's, PIP's, Energi's, Leaf's and FCX Clarity and its hydrogen filling stations.

 

well obviously that article is just a lie anyway, otherwise Toyota wouldnt have a target to get the car out, at "affordable" price by 2015 and sell it in "tens of thousands", right?

Another lie propagated by EV backers is that recharging infrastructure is "there" for EVs - yes, it is there if you want to charge your 80 mile ride for 44 hours. Otherwise, it is definitely not there.

On the other hand, they can and they will build more hydrogen gas stations and you go for a visit, 5 minutes later - BAM - 500 mile range. By the definition you dont need charging station in every home, few hundred per state would do wonders to get tens of thousands cars on the roads.

p.s. I am all for letting best technology win, i have no interest in promoting either one. Both are going to use a lot of similar components anyway and all are essentially "hybrids" in a sense that they will have components that can be used in hybrid vehicles too... I just dont get all the hate about it.

 

2015 begins in 2.3 years BTW, i doubt anything will change about battery technology by then, change is very slow.

 

I've seen the fuel cell Equinoxs around. If I ever see one stopped, I'm going to ask the driver where they're getting their fuel.