Ford C-Max Plug-in hybrid to have 20 mile range

C-Max Hybrid definetly seems pretty cool... are they going to sell it in Europe?

 

Soon, we will know the size and cost of the battery!
For instance, the Focus Electric:

Ford prepared for slow Focus Electric sales; battery costs $12-15,000

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/ford-releases-focus-electric-sales-numbers/

 

With an MRSP range of about 40,000 USD - I agree its going to be a hard sell.

 

Of course the Prius is better it use less fuel per mile but the question is whether the Diesels are dirtier. The data shows they are not. Here's a like to like comparison of Corolla and Diesel Sportwagon, nearly identical mileage and nearly identical emissions.

Standards
(grams per mile) NOx 0.07 CO 2.1 NMOG 0.055 PM 0.01 Smog-forming Pollution:
(pounds per year) 4.13 Greenhouse Gases Emitted:
(tons per year) 5.10

Emissions Certification Standard: LEV-II ULEV Standards
(grams per mile) NOx 0.07 CO 2.1 NMOG 0.055 PM 0.01 Smog-forming Pollution:
(pounds per year) 4.13 Greenhouse Gases Emitted:
(tons per year) 5.11


A Diesel Prius would be higher mileage and lower emissions per mile.

 

So the argument is whether replacing an Atkinson Cycle engine with a diesel engine would give the Prius a energy efficiency edge? About three years ago I thought this might make a more fuel efficient Prius, too. Now -I'm not as sure. Toyota has done a decent job at tuning the Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius. Diesel fuel has a higher energy density (+5.8%) than gasoline so this helps diesel engines appear to be more energy efficient - but it does so at a price because diesel fuel is price accordingly higher than gasoline. The downside to diesel engines is that they are traditionally more suspectible to problems than gasoline engines when starting up and running in below freezing temperatures - so given the low bar that has been set for the driver population - using a diesel engine might bring Toyota more headaches than its worth. Not that it can't be done - Volvo is rolling out a plug-in diesel hybrid car, the 2013 Volvo V60 hybrid, for about $75,000 usd [1] .

[1]
2013 Volvo V60 Diesel-Hybrid Priced

 

C-max is the first hybrid from competition, that is not premium car or mild hybrid (Honda). This is step in the right direction and in Toyota territory.
Other Europe manufacturers are pushing diesel hybrids, but in performance/premium class. I think combining a small 1.6 l diesel with electric motor, benefit wouldn't be so big, because such an engine already has good efficiency under low engine load and in combination with start/stop they are already in Prius territory. Gain of 10% would be possible but the price wouldn't be competitive if you consider that such a small diesel car is already as expensive as hybrid Yaris.

Ford may be up to something, a car for the masses. I really don't get it, that there is no press release for Europe.

 

Many years ago, I posted a table from the California Air Resources Board records of vehicle certifications but the table interface has changed. This is an updated version:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3
0	[th]NMHC+NOx SC03[th]model[tr][td]0.15 g/mi[td]Ford 2.0L	2011[tr][td]0.12 g/mi[td]VW 2.0L TDI diesel[tr][td]0.01 g/mi[td]Toyota 1.8L	Prius

Sources: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2011/ford_pc_a0101592_2d0_l2.pdf, http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2010/volkswagen_pc_a0070285_2d0_u2_diesel.pdf, and http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2010/toyota_pc_a0140657_1d8_pz_hevge.pdf

NMHC - non-methane, hydrocarbon
SC03 - EPA SC03 Supplemental Federal Test Procedure (SFTP) wit Air Conditioning

If looking for a health risk, this would be the 'smoking gun.'

Bob Wilson

 

Yes, it does. At lower speeds the accuracy is better. Over approx. 55mph the accuracy goes down such that at 60mph you can expect a 2mph over read. At least that is how it appeared in my GenII. Interestingly the 2mph difference held until at least 75mph at which point I stopped measuring the difference.

 

Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid priced at $33,745; or $29,995 after tax credit

So, the Lithium Pack is 8 Kwh?

Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid priced at $33,745; or $29,995 after tax credit

 

I'm still not completely sold on Lithium Ion tech, just look at the Leaf’s battery troubles. I say give it a few years, and then see how these Lithium Ion batteries are doing. I need more proof that they are up to the task, and proof will come with time, it’s one of the reasons I avoided the PiP.

As to diesel hybrids, here’s my two cents FWIW: They don’t make the same amount of sense as gasoline hybrids. The electric motor works best where the gas engine works worst, and vice versa. There is a nice cross over point where the two are at about the same efficiency, roughly 45 mph in the Prius. The two motors complement each other and work in harmony or “Synergy”, thus the “Synergy Drive System”. A diesel is more like an electric motor, low speed high torque, which is why it is found in buses, trucks, and trains. A gasoline engine on the other hand works best at higher speeds, thus its use in cars, and airplanes. The diesel and electric motor efficiencies are too similar to produce the same gains you get when you marry the electric and gasoline motors together. As to emissions, would you hook up your breathing mask to the tailpipe of either of them? I hope you said no. It has been my experience that diesels tend to produce more particulates; this is why a local company has invented a ceramic filter to try to remove them before they exit the exhaust system. This is also why the outer walls of buildings in Europe look like the inside walls of the home of a chain smoker. Europe can keep their diesels as far as I’m concerned. Here is your clean diesel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=54c9fLsbhhA

Just my two cents.

 

IMHO its just ugly,not really ugly.... but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I saw my first prius v on the road last week, and that looked ugly compared to the prius liftback. Those prius cs look better. The fusion energi looks very good in the photos. But what kind of car do you want to drive? If you want a hatch back plug in with room for 5 and cargo - the c-max seems to hit all the right features.

 

I used to think that the Prius was ugly, but I don’t find it ugly anymore. I think this is just about what we thought a car was supposed to look like. We all became used to cars looking a certain way, and that look became the illusion of aerodynamics in our minds. Now we know that the Prius has the lowest C.D. of any car, and as we see this shape more and more, we will start to appreciate it more and more. Years ago, I would never have thought of my Prius as a good looking car, but now I actually think it is a slick looking car. It’s the slow shift of our perception of what looks good to us. So yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

That seems to be the guess, and if it is 20 miles EPA range between 8kwh and 9kwh would be what you would calculate from the prius phv and volt battery pack.

New Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid boasts 550-mile range, 95 mpg equivalent

The c-max gets worse mpge than the fusion energi, but it gets 47 city, 47 hwy in the hybrid according to fords site. This makes the phv will use about 5% less gas in charge sustain on long trips, not a bad trade off for the extra room and greater electric range with the c-max energi. With this pricng, the c-max hybrid/energi competes well with the prius v/phv. $4K more after tax credit seems like a good trade off for 20 miles electric range, but it does sacrifice some cargo room. The energi and hybrid are up on the ford site now for those interested. Unfortunately the energi won't be available until next year.

 

Volumes of c-max hybrid and energi. For comparison the prius phv is 93.7 cu. ft. passenger volume, 21. 6 cu. ft. cargo volume behind 2nd row. I'm not sure the size wist seats folded. That gives the phv 2.4 cu. ft. more cargo volume when carrying 5 passengers, but 6 cu. ft. less passenger room.

The batteries of the energi take 9.8 cu. ft. of cargo volume with the seats folded.

Seating Capacity

5​

5​

Passenger Volume (cu. ft.)

99.7​

99.7​

Cargo Volume behind 2nd row seats (cu. ft.)

24.5​

19.2​

Cargo Volume behind 1st row seats (with 2nd row seats folded) (cu. ft.)

52.6​

42.8​

Fuel Capacity (gal.)

13.5​

​

14​

 

I would guess $3500-$6000. Indications from range and mpge is the battery should be 8kwh-9kwh.The focus bev uses cells from compact power, the energi from Panasonic. Best guess is ford switched for price, but.... the focus bev is liquid cooled, the energi is not. The Panasonic cells might do better with temperature changes, and might demand a premium price for that.

 

That is a very bad assumption. The TDI has more expensive pollution control equipment. If you want the prius to be cleaner, you can add the equipment. Its a matter of price and maintenance. The prius is already so clean its not worth adding the cost. The prius is cleaner in most situations than the tdi. Price needs to go down not up.

 

PS,

First, recognize that the pollutants are reported in amount/mile.

Second, The Corolla you mention meets ULEV while the Prius emits about 1/3 of allowed SULEV. If you change the ICE to a diesel in a Prius, all bets are off what the emissions will be. It is not as if the Prius has a particle filter and urea trap currently cleaning up an ICE that would clean up a diesel to the same degree.

I have noticed that you try to extrapolate from other cars that have very different technologies and characteristics. You end up comparing apples and oranges. E.g., while an apple may in fact be quite tasty after it is cooked in an oven for an hour, you really should not assume the same will true of an orange even though they are both fruit.

 

It's not an "assumption" it is noting the data that similar mileage gas and Diesel cars, the Corolla and the VW Sportwagen have nearly identical emissions by every measure. Someone said making a Diesel Prius would increase emissions and that is clearly not true as the EPA emissions data notes.

A Diesel Prius would likely see a 25% mileage boost similar to the gas hybrid vs. Diesel hybrid Puegot.

 

Second recognize that fuel consumption is also per mile. Prius has lower emissions per mile because it uses less gasoline per mile.

It's why the similar mileage gas and Diesel vehicles, Corolla and VW Sportwagen have identical emissions, they use the same amount of fuel per mile.

What the EPA data tells us is that the modern Diesels are as clean burning as modern gasoline engines so a Diesel Prius would get better fuel mileage and produce fewer emissions per mile.