Ford C-Max Plug-in hybrid to have 20 mile range

Don't think you'll go too far on the 12V starting battery in your VW TDI Sportwagon.

Adding a hybrid battery system to a Diesel gets the same advantages it does adding it to a gasoline vehicle. Corolla to Prius example, it adds 20 mpg. Same would be true in VW TDI Sportwagon designed as a hybrid. Diesel just has a higher mpg starting point so higher end mpg result.

Diesel/EV/Hybrid would be the ultimate MPG machine short of all EV.

 

PS,
As one example, hybrids gain fuel economy over conventional cars by virtue of reduced pumping losses. Diesels already have that advantage because they do not have an air throttle. The hybridization cannot improve that area.

The other aspect of conventional to hybrid comparisons you have to take into account are differences not specific to hybridization. VW will not have a car with prius type aerodynamics, gearing for fuel economy at the expense of performance, skinny tyres etc. It all adds up.

So while a Prius does in fact have 50% better fuel economy than a Corolla, you will not see anything close to that improvement in the VW hybridization of a diesel.

 

But it's not just VW making diesels. I know you don't get them but Citroen and Peugeot are both now offering a number of diesel hybrids here and there are more to follow. In fact, Peugeot will have a hybrid option on pretty much all of their range, though none yet match the fuel economy of the Prius.

 

But adding hybrid to Diesel gives the car the same mileage boost it would adding it to gasoline engine. That the Diesel has mpg advantages doesn't change the added mileage a hybrid systems would provide.

Toyota doesn't have a patent on aerodynamics. German engineers have some experience with it.

There is no mpg penalty for using a Diesel engine in a hybrid system.
Diesel engine will provide the same mpg boost it would in any car as will the hybrid and EV systems.

 

IIRC the Prius hybrid max EV speed of 46 mph has something to do with preventing the electric motors from burning out. The Prius Plug-in which allows for 60 mph in EV mode has worked this problem out from what I understand.

 

As GC suggested, I peeked at the Peugeot website at Peugeot.fr

The 3008 comes in petrol, diesel, and diesel-hybrid versions. The combined fuel economy for the 1.6L diesel Blue LiOn is 5 L/100km, while the hybrid is 4 L/100km. That is a 25% improvement, not the 50% we see in your example of Corolla to Prius.

In terms of US MPG (on the Euro cycle) the diesel hybrid manages 58.8 combined cycle, while the diesel manages 47 mpg. For comparison, the Toyota Auris hybrid is 62 mpg on this NEDC cycle.

IIRC US EPA testing gives results of about 80% of the Euro cycle testing, so we will see 47 mpg for the hybrid, and 37.6 mpg for the diesel -- or about an 9 mpg improvement by EPA numbers.

By the way, the hybrid diesel is 15,000 Euros more expensive than the straight diesel option in France.

Addendum: One more comparo, since it can be a chore to compare US to European cars and different emission test cycles. The Yaris hybrid is rated 3.5L / 100 km, but we know that most drivers in the US end up in the low 50s mpg and combined EPA is 50 mpg.

Conclusion: Your diesel plug-in will not hit 60 mpg in EPA testing in CS mode. In fact, it will not even reach 50 mpg.

 

Yep, the drivetrain of the PHV does not have to spin until the ICE until car speed is 62 mph.

I was pointing out that the Ford's upper limit of 65 mph before the ICE must spin to protect the electric motor does not sound like much (a 3 mph difference), but it could hit a sweet spot for slowish highway drivers.

As an aside, driving at low 60s mph is a problem area (relatively) for our cars, since only about 12- 13 kw is needed for steady state speed on the flat, not enough for best ICE efficiency. Best case, the Ford gains 20% efficiency while not spinning the ICE, and another ~10% or so by not running the ICE in an inefficient zone. This would not be all the time of course, but as I said highway driving at 64 mph might be a sweet spot for the car.

 

With PHV, the automatic response is simple at both 60 & 65 mph. 60 will be EV. 65 will be EV-BOOST.

With Energi, driving at 60 will be EV as well. But at 65 mph, will there be a buffer available?

Use whatever adjective you want, another is "uncertain".

 

The same buffer available to the PHV at 62 mph.

 

What would "best" be? We'll hit diminishing returns at some point. I see 150 MPG at 65 mph as nothing worthy of complaint. At 70 mph, it's low 100's for MPG, well above anything else with an engine.

That would only apply if the speed limit were 62 mph.

With the speed limit at 65 mph, the buffer would have to be a top EV speed of 67.

 

Best is fairly easy to define: ICE either is off and not spinning, or consuming fuel at its best SFC possible.

EV up to 70 mph will let most people interested in fuel economy save on ICE spin on the highway going down hills. 61 mph rarely, and at 64 mph the benefit will be somewhere in between. YMMV

I agree, the PHV performs quite nicely. The Ford will do better, all else being equal besides the EV speed threshold.

 

Prius to Corolla is a 36% difference in mpg for the hybrid system. Considering the engineering difference in a Prius vs. Corolla a 25% boost in mpg for the hybrid system sounds about right. 25% boost for Diesel per the Puegot comparison.

Conclusion from your numbers is Diesel adds 25% mpg to hybrid and hybrid adds 25% to Diesel. So Diesel Prius would get to 62.5 mpg. Adding 20 miles of EV capability would, in my case, get me to 50% EV and 50% 62.5 mpg for 125 mpg net.

 

The Toyota Corolla is rated 27/34 -- combined about 30
The Prius combined is 50

50/30 = 66.6% better fuel economy. That is also 20 mpg better, as you mentioned earlier. Do not expect anywhere near the same jump when a diesel is hybridized.

In fact, simply adding 20 miles of EV range to a Prius will get you to 100 mpg using your estimated EV ratio, a bit better than a European diesel plug-in with the same EV range.

 

keep in mind the other differences between Prius and Corolla so probably 25% could be attributed to hybrid system. Per your numbers comparing gas vs Diesel Puegot hybrids the Diesel boost was 25%. So Diesel Prius would be 62.5 mpg and then add 20 mile of EV and you get 125 mpg for someone with an 80 mile commute.

It would but adding the Diesel still provides a 25% mpg boost to driving beyond EV range so every reason to do it.

 

Emissions!

 

Let's remember what that 25% number is about: the improvement in MPG when a Peugeot diesel is hybridized.

First off, I would not be quick to extrapolate to Toyota.

Second, none of the European offerings have those other Prius specific advantages, so the overall MPG of a Peugeot or VW diesel-hybrid does not have better fuel economy than a Prius. In fact, a bit worse. That could change in the future, but AFAIK nothing is on the horizon. My only real intent posting in this thread was to disabuse you of the notion that a current or near term European diesel-plugin would have EPA combined fuel economy of 60+ mpg in CS mode.

For now, waiting for the Prius plug-in to increase its EV range strikes me as the smart move. Save money, gain reliability, drive the lowest emission ICE on the planet. In the meantime use the saved money to put up PV on your roof, so that the EV is actually clean.

 

Also, if the C-MAX is anything like the Prius, when the speedometer says 65mph it's actually traveling at 62 or 63mph so it's well within the physical limits.

 

About the same per the US Dept of Transportation page Fuel Economy

Compare a Jetta TDI Sportwagon at 33 mpg with a gas engine vehicle getting 33 mpg. Emissions are about equal.

 

I though you compared the gas hybrid to the Diesel hybrid Peugot.