Next voltec, what do you think of the new rumors

Tax credits do not exist all over the world and they won't have the 200,000 phase out limit. For the Volt to be a global car, it needs to be designed with the MSRP.

The tax credit blessing can work against GM in the next gen. The current Volt is already maxing the tax credit with 16 kWh pack. Increasing the battery capacity would not get any more tax credit. Toyota can increase the battery size of the PHV battery size and the qualified tax credit will increase.

GM will need to lower the price, lower cold start emissions, increase CS MPG and interior volume to midsize 5 seats. The goals of the concept Volt was below $30k, 50 MPG and 40 miles EV range. Those are huge milestones still yet to achieve. At $30k, it needs to compete with the midsize Prius because the compact 50 MPG Prius c starts at $19k.

Toyota simply need to add more battery which will be offset by tax credit. The ground work of not increasing carbon footprint (per the state of the grid) for Prius PHV has been done. Next gen will follow that ground work and increase the electric motor power and PHV battery size accordingly, while balancing out the various government incentives all over the world.

 

Don't forget about also increasing sales. With the expectations recently lowered to 20,000 here for 2012, it's a head-scratcher how all that will be accomplished.

All automakers face the challenge of shifting production to more efficient choices. GM's struggle has been on the lack of flexibility. The platform itself could be altered, they just don't seem willing to actually do that though... which is why the rumors thrive.

 

Agreed tax credits dont' exist everwhere.. but pricing is different elsewere. The Volt/Ampera pricing, compared to other EV or PHEV, is well positioned in EU.. it is now the best selling Ev in EU
Ampera (Volt sibling in EU) is Europe’s best selling passenger electric vehicle | PriusChat


The question for the manufactures is what they can charge, and tax credits just increase their margins. The company are about making money, balancing short term gains (which the market reacts to quickly) and long term investments in their future. GM is not in great shape to absorb the decade of losses that Toyota took on the Prius, but they could stil invest at different levels to keep it growing.

I think the issue of cold-start and MPG_CS are, for the average customer, way down on the priority list. Only prius fanbois and people that don't understand the EREV overall model, think those are critical. Average consumer will care more about quality and price (and maybe power and perception of their friends). The bigger issue is people don't know/understand EREV just like they did not understand HV when it was introduced. Media attend has often been misguiding and sometime bordering on intentionally false. And until there is enough reliable information and good history on the battery/reliability the majority of people won't trust them.

At 33K Net it already competes with the Prius. The question will be what GM does when the tax credit ends.. will they cut their margins to invest in the furture, or will they pull back. No one knows.. even those at GM will be waiting to see the data available at that time.

 

I thought the bigger engine rumor is for ELR and the same engine for gen2 Volt is your assumption. Assuming that is the case, bigger engine doesn't mean it'll be cleaner. Minimizing cold engine start emission requires exhaust heat recovery and spark advance tuning. All those technologies are already in Prius PHV. If bigger engine means higher CS MPG, it is the right direction.... assuming it would fit under the hood and not protrude further (as the battery already have) into the cabin.

GM needs to step up with a cleaner, more efficient gas engine and cold start performance. It was put on the "low priority" list because utilization was thought to be 20% but turned out to be 39%.

Volt's battery holds equivalent of 1/3 gallon of gas and the gas tank holds 9 gallons. So, it has 27x more energy in the tank to be consumed. It's efficiency and emission cannot be ignored, again!

Perhaps your life style is lonely. I have used my 5th seat many times, once 6 squeezed in. Remember, the safest seat for an infant is the rear middle seat. Certainly Volt's battery pack is too big and I am sure it has put off many potential buyers.

3,780 lbs car with a "backup" fuel system seem like a waste for a solo drivers. Not green at all, no matter what fuel it runs on.

Certainly not small for those within 15 miles commute range. That's 68% if a second recharge is possible at work and about 50% charging once at home.

Bigger PHV battery would surely expand the potential buyers. The key is not to increase the price and give up interior volume. I am crossing my fingers they put the spare tire in and lower the price in 2015. Those are easier goals than what Volt has on it's shoulder.

 

There is no actual EREV in existence, perhaps only in fanboi fantasy. The concept seems easy to understand but in reality it is very difficult and inefficient to implement. As we agreed, the closest car to come close to EREV is Fisker Karma. That car is full of compromises. It is better to go all EV like Tesla Model S.

 

I don't know who you agreed with it that the karm was closes. What I though was agreed was to agree to disagree on what is what and wait on the SAE definition to resolve it. The Karma is not closer to beng an EREV.. it can use its engine at any time. While the Volt allows the engine to run in some special modes its is an EREV as I (and many) interpret the definition.

But just replace "EREV" in any of my posts with VOLT and you'll know what I mean. The problem from an education point of view is that people don't understand why MPG_CS does not really matter or why startup emissions being 2x or 3x a prius is not a problem.

Where is you data showing cold starts are at 39%.. %ICE miles over the whole fleet != fraction of starts.
And in comparison where is our data on number of Prius cold starts?

Its how big is the tank, its what you do with it. The battery provides 94MPGe for a 2012, and will be 98MPGe for the 2013. So if one choose a good choice of power, its way better as its that's more efficient than any gas engine.

Really.. what's your MPG? What is mine with my ER backup but mostly EV? What is the fleet average overall energy for Prius compared to the Volt? The Volt is is way more green if you can use green power.

yep a PHV with a reasonable battery size to say 40 miles, and make it so it can do highway speeds of 75mph in pure EV and it would be comparable.. But those are not as trivial as you make it sound as the current configuration would not be good at high speed. In contrast, all the Volt has to do is drop its price, which it can do with no engineering changes (its a business decision). If they want to improve their profits they need to find ways to reduce their costs, but that also depends on volume. The Leaf already tried to play the lower-price card, but noone followed them down as the companies probably correctly feel they can charge a premium and still sell a modest number of cars. GM does not need to make a lot of money on the Volt to learn from it and build the next generation and for it to serve as a halo.[/quote][/quote]

 

That's called cherry-picking. Fleet means an entire category, not just a specific vehicle. Combine all the Chevy cars and compare them to the average of all Toyota cars. The 750,000 hybrids from Toyota easily offsets...

That's the rumor Volt supporters certainly are trying to spread. In reality, we only have a few months of data available, but the resulting MPG boost is matching what had been expected all along

 

It does matter. The goal is to replace traditional production with vehicles offering with much better emissions & efficiency.

 

Maybe it matters if you are trying to invest in a company a consider that important for long-term financial status. It matters in terms of being vocal to change.. but the manufactures will build what people will buy.

That is why its all about education now.. we have to help educate the public and help drive sales of all EVs and PHEVs..
We have to change the buying culture, that's what sets the long-term trends.

But the overall manufacture fleet is irrelivent to the discussion of a single model which is the point of this thread/forum.

 

My education effort is pointing out how others are drawing conclusions for people, rather than just providing facts for them to decide on their own. Notice the lack of actual data?

Try this: Recharged twice. Traveled so far 38.1 miles. Display average 118 MPG. Remaining EV distance 7.9 miles.

 

Yes, I have I've noticed most of your posts about the Volt have no data. And talking about 1 trip is not much data.
Charged last night, Today I did 34 miles, 100% EV, 20 miles remaining showing. when I got home. To bad you needed to use a bit more than .25 gallons for today's trip and so many gallons in just a few months. I don't expect to use 60 gallons for 10000 miles this year.

But more importantly is long term data over a large cross section, like we can see at voltstats.net. But that is data which no other car is providing automatically so its hard to compare but easy to show people that the Volt really works for a wide range of people.

For this thread, we're discussing data on how things might be better/worse with a 2.0L.

Having considered it more, I think a 2.0L would be a good move for GM, even if its exactly the same efficiency as long as it allows them to reduce cost? Why?
1) Cost is the most important variable for them to address.
2) Having the power may attract more people (even if it does not change MPG_CS) or really change the off-the-line pickup
3) It should allow better NHV when in CS mode.
4) It should allow reduce dependence on MountainMode (which i use a lot).

Of course my preference would be improved efficency..

 

More data from the rumor mill.. what is goign the ELR?
From:
Cadillac ELR: More Details On How the Volt Will Become a Caddy (Hint: More Power)

This suggests 1.8L.. not 2.0 for the ELR.. so not likely a Volt would go to 2.0

 

There's a clear effort to downplay data. That dismissal is a good example of drawing conclusions.

<unwatch>

 

Dismissing someone presenting a single measurement as "not much data", especially a single atypical measurement, is just science/engineering.

Your comment is ironic since just a bit earlier in this thread you said

So when you presented even more trivial data, data that is atypical for you (your best tank on the MPG spreadsheet is 86MPG, so ) I was calling you on it. If you want to talk about data,which is plural, talk about a meaningful amount of it, or say that the single example is an exception event (e.g. personal best).