My "Improved"Bullet Proof" less expensive version of the Tanabe"Sustec"front bar is available

We can all talk (write) about it, or we can empirically, although subjectively, try the braces in a comparo. I did. I got my resulting subjective data in hand, or in the seat of my pants, as it were.

It's like arguing whether an exotic dish tastes good or not, or... tasting it. You don't have to be a cook to make up your mind once you try it. It either tastes good or it doesn't.

 

Ok, I'll play along. What was your testing scenario?

Apples and oranges my friend. We're not talking about an aesthetic modification, we're talking about a performance modification. There are objective measurements one can gather with suspension modifications.

I don't care so much how it feels, I care about how it performs. This is why I'm so interested in seeing numbers. If product X doesn't do a better job to keep my car in contact with the road, to achieve higher numbers at a skid pad, I'm not interested in that product.

 

Maestro8, I described my testing scenarios in previous posts.

Apples and oranges grow on trees and we haven't met yet so we cannot be friends.

I'm glad you shared what you care about. This world is big enough for all of us.

 

So you can't be a man and share your expertise with us? I'm here to find out too but I'm not an engineer like you are. Could you please help us for the greater PC forums? I'm as interested as you are but saying it's "your job" isn't going to prove it any quicker. Engineering degrees doesn't appear in people's hands in less than 3 years.

My contribution. I want to break down the question to get to the answer. So assuming it's made of the same material, is a box shaped anything less prone to bend than a "C" section shaped of an hour glass?

I can go calculate bending moments of simple I beams, C sections but hour glass shaped pieces of metal is beyond the little brain I have and that's why I call for engineers way smarter than I am that happen to be here for their assistance.

 

I built a storage shed in my backyard this weekend, smoked some meat on the grill and drank some beers, so I got the "be a man" thing taken care of. Let's set that aside.

I'm sharing my expertise by probing Rude person's for his methodology. It seems most folks are happy by bolting on some part to their car, driving it around, and saying something's different, without having the vocabulary to describe it. Fine. But having learned how suspensions work, how performance is measured, etc., I'm bringing the vocabulary to the forum, and I'm using it to ask Rude person's questions.

I did engineering work before I had a degree. It doesn't take a piece of paper to make you smart, it takes interest in a subject and a lot of work.

This theoretical exercise may interest you but it won't do us much good here. There are more variables in play than how a theoretical member bends along an arbitrary axis. These variables can produce effects that counter what we learn with theory. This is why we test things!

This is besides the point. I'm not here to sell a suspension mod. I'm not making claims one way or another. I'm just asking questions because I want better performance out of my Prius and I'm going to pick the brain of anyone who claims he's done so... and so far I get the impression that Rude person's stumbled onto a solution that's incrementally better than OEM, but he doesn't know how he did so.

Ok, fine, this won't be the world's first product that's been produced by mistake (see the story behind PostIt notes for example). But if anyone should "be a man" it's Mike. He could admit he's done naught but a bit of trial and error, and this is good enough for him. His insistence on insulting the folks who're querying him, calling it "BS", "ranting", "diatribe" is quite childish.

 

Really? I did pork cracking last weekend on my Weber Q. I had to put the pork belly in hot water for an hour to get the meat cooked with soy, vinegar and coriander. Slow cooked it in the weber for 30mins and then blasted it for 5mins to get the cracking. I should have got the blow torch on the skin to get more crackling because it started to burn on the skin side. Love having BBQ in winter!

 

Folks,
Here are some more notes based on my observations:

1.) The middle brace and front brace are precision made based on my install and fitment on my car. Others and I have noticed this because my front brace was tight to get the second screw started until the car was jacked on one side, just a little. My driveway has a slight tilt to remove water away from the house.
2.) They feel strong and are made of light weight aluminium.
3.) In my opinion they improved my handling of my car by maintaining the originally calculated angles in the suspension geometry.
4.) They provide me better feedback from the chassis especially going over bumps in the road.
5.) The stiffer ride can become very fun to drive. IMO.

 

But you're not allowed to have an opinion (so evaluate by feel so it seems). Everything needs proven with methodology, calculations and conclusion. Just like the Big Bang theory needs proof for it to be true, aliens don't exist, Burmuda triangle is a load of BS and the Lochness monster/Bigfoot is not real.

I feel sorry for car reviewers who don't normally have imperical figures to write their article and base all their opinions on their opinions.

 

This is a testament to the "floppyness" of the Prius. When jacked at one corner, the entire side of a properly-stiffened will raise into the air. It's gonna take a lot of reinforcement to get the Prius this strong!

So you measured these angles as you drove? Just curious how you made this observation. I'd bet there's still some amount of flex in the chassis.

I've got a car that's built on a space frame, and it handles like a go-kart. So much fun, I agree.

This is why I'm looking for the stiffest reinforcements possible for my Prius... but I only want to buy each part once. I'm not willing to be a guinea pig for an unproven technology. Hence my questioning. It boggles my mind how many folks can't understand a simple quest for metrics.

Pick up any major auto magazine: Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc. I dare you to try and find a review that doesn't include every figure from wheelbase to curb weight, 0-60 and 60-0 times to skid pad numbers. There's a reason those numbers are there: they mean something to many people.

Just because you don't care about numbers, does not invalidate their value to the rest of the world.

 

If you dont like it, you dont have to buy it. But dont berate the seller !!

 

You are trying to carry on a technical discussion with someone who isn't equipped to have that discussion, at some point that becomes as pointless as debating a barking dog. Time to move on.

Edit: I was a little harsh. I think Mike is a skilled fabricator who is generous with his time. There are lot of good specialty parts makers who have learned by observation, doing and experimenting.
Mike is one of those and while a valid engineering explanation with numbers would be nice to have, the lack of one doesn't invalidate what he has done. His design is clean and simple to the point of being elegant, unfortunately we are unlikely to ever know how much of the results are placebo and how much are real, but that's the way most of the aftermarket parts business works. Too bad Mike blew a fuse when he was asked technical questions that he couldn't answer.

 

I was hopeful that there was merely a clash of egos in the way of a good technical discussion. But this appears to be a case where hope leads only to despair.

I agree, time to move on. Thanks for coming out of the woodwork to remind me I'm not totally crazy.

 

Does anyone know of a Tire Rack employee who drives a 3rd Gen Prius? I only ask because Tire Rack has test tracks on their property and they test parts they sell. Irv could possibly be a supplier for Tire Rack and they could possibly provide that detailed test data like skid pad numbers stock verses braced with Irv's chassis braces. An idea...

The previous cars that I have driven have all benefited from chassis braces whether top or bottom. Some of the best braces IMO were ones that tied in suspension pivot points from each side and front to rear bracing. Of course a full roll cage would be best but that isn't gonna happen in a Prius unless you regularly drive on a road course and want that safety measure.

Would I buy one of Irv's braces? Yes, but only when I can scrape up the funds, and I have been trying hard

Mike

 

I just got my bar today and installed it. Installation was pretty simple.

This bar is machined to very very precise demensions. I almost couldn't get it in but then I turned my wheel a little which torqued the chassis over just the .5mm that it needed and it popped right in.

I want to address the flaming going on here with regard to the fact that this is untested. I did in fact feel better handling characteristics but what is amazing is how I CANNOT feel the transition between electric motor and ICE anymore. If this was supposed to do only that one thing, it would be worth it. Amazing.

 

This is a reply is in support of Rude person's. Some people posted some negative comments because he didn't post specific data. I am a 70 year old retired master tool maker & worked many years in aircraft tooling & stress fixtures. I am not an engineer like Mike but I do know a lot about making parts out of aluminum, especially using 6061 T6. I bought Rude person's's front bar & the center brace & also installed a TRD Prius sway bar. I can tell you that I have a brand new car & as far as I'm concerned the money was well spent on Mike's products.

 

Had the front brace installed by my mechanic due to lack of time.
Its a 10 min job, I paid $20. This is the only modification I've done so far.
The center brace is the 2012 oem improved one.

There is a noticeable increase in torsional rigidity. The steering feels more
direct and there is a very significant reduction in body flex when driving over bumps/road expansions.
The car feels more stable while cornering and just driving straight!

I have lots of experience with modifying cars for (mainly Mazdas and BMW) and this must be
the most significant improvement I ever got from just one brace, a testimony to the Prius's lousy
stock torsional rigidity.

I wanted to post a review 5 minuets after installation because the improvement is so dramatic but
decided to wait a week to confirm my initial impression. The more I drive the more notice the difference.

 

you probably dont want to hear this but mike's center brace is better than the front one and the improved center brace.

 

I'm trying to convince myself that the improved oem center brace is good enough...

 

Some day when I have the funds, I'll see if Mike can make me one of his braces for my car

Mike

Mobile on my Asus