How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

That doesn't make the problem go away though.

The need to fulfill business requirements remains, which is usually the source of the undesired content.

Over promise, under deliver...

 

Each grid puts out its own data about 6 months after the year. You need to look there which is rather raw, compared to EIAs assessment. If your sole focus is ghg, the grid is getting cleaner, but phevs seem to release nearly as many in electricity as gasoline. The slope seems to be 1%-4% less ghg per year. A good estimation would therefore be about 10% lower ghg in 2012 than the 2007 data from the grid.

The beutiful thing about electricity is you can switch the sources of power. The US is a net exporter of coal, and EIA expects it to be a net exporter of ng by 2016. These plus wind, biomass, biogas, and solar are much less scarce than oil. The US is unlikely to ever be a net importer coal, as it has over 20% of the worlds reserves, it also isn't likely to substitute coal for much of its gasoline use. The new power is mainly coming from natural gas and wind, coal and gasoline use are slowly going down.

Sure, its in pdf form, but wikipedia should satisfy your curiosity. The idea behind cafe is to reduce oil use.
Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

No, USB makes very valid points that are right. He points are not misleading as you claim.

DBCassidy

 

Volt depends tax-credit money and a larger battery-pack.

That leaves arguments about being "better" without context.

What is the point... bragging rights or high-volume sales?

 

Both the prius phv and volt rely on tax credits and other sweeteners for sales in this incubation phase. At this point in time they should be compared at cost to the customer. I do not have a crystal ball, but DOE says that the price of these batteries should drop, and have been at 7% a year. If you are going to do what if analysis you need to include dropping prices for parts​

I thought the idea was to talk about strengths and weaknesses for different prospective buyers.

Certainly at this point in time as to volume and awards the volt has the bragging rights, but these are fleeting things. This should be about what is better for a customer, and that customer can't really use a press award if they need 5 seats, or help a different one if the battery is too small.

 

The only point that matters is reader education. That was surely your strongest asset when describing Prius capabilities and advantages....and still is. However, I don't really gain any education if the focus is ONLY finding faults with the Volt.

However, if GM is to become a respectable automaker, then it MUST undertake efforts to make revolutionary cars. The Volt may not be a perfect step in that direction, but dang, it certainly is the right direction. For some, it may be the choice they want and works best for them. I may or may not have a Volt in my future, but it is certainly the only GM vehicle I would seriously educate myself on before making a decision. Good for GM, and that does not insult Toyota in any way.

 

Priority wasn't placed on rolling out something affordable.

Continuing to downplay speaks volumes.

Too little, too slowly...

 

13kw@ 62mph would mean that @ a constant 62mph the PHV would go 14.3 miles (3.0/13*62). I don't think that is realistic.


And my comment about 130-140 MPGe was including gas for hard acceleration. If A prius was doing 13kw@62 sustained that would be 162MPGe.

Below is a plot of speed vs KW from a simulation using a 2004 prius


Which looks like it estimates the prius at 18kW

 

No, not in the prius phv or volt or energi, tesla s. The priority was to substitute electric miles for gasoline. In the case of the prius phv, it may have been motivated because kit builders were doing it anyway and toyota might be left behind.

These first gen plug-ins were built for a reasonable price. For the ecobox price you need to look at the fit, sonic, versa. Its a completely different segment.

You speak as if you are a professor talking to a middle school student. Some of us are enthusiastic about plug-ins. You seem to like the most conservative smallest change. Hey that is your peragative, I'm glad there is a choice out there you like. I would love to see a prius phv at $25K after tax credits, but its not going to happen until the next generation.

You keep repeating that, but then say the volt is too much. Too little what?

 

Yes john, we know your point of view, which has been stated over and over again. If you have something meaningful, based on facts and data, it would be interesting to hear it. I don't think rehashing personal opinions adds much to the conversation.

The Volt's price, after rebate[edit tax credit], is only 2K more than a Plug in Prius after rebate[edit:tax credit]. So are you saying, GM released an affordable car, or Toyota did not, or that 2K is the difference between affordable or not? I can agree to that to many readers, they would rather both cars be 5K or 10K cheaper, then again many all want their team to win the superbowl and get large raises at work and win the lottery. Wishing does not make something realistic. The PHEVs, after rebates, are just about average for vehichle transaction price. They are not cheap but they are still afforadable, especially if one does a TCO computation.

 

The market for PHV is everyday consumers.

The market for Volt is the efficiency enthusiast.

There's a huge difference.

 

That is the basis for either of those statements. Neither company has formal statements on who is their formal market. You don't seem to have the credentials to claim to be an expert in what are intended products for markets.

Look at some of the threads on why-buy a Phv or the PHV is not worth it, such as
Why get PIP, no cost savings. | PriusChat
New Prius Plug in less than impressive | PriusChat
Torn on the Plug in Prius | PriusChat

If the consumer is worried about cost, its hard to imagine them paying 6K extra over a base Prius, and more than 14K over the Prius C. You'll never make that up in saving of gas. So to justify a PHV or They have to want EV or HOV or be a technophile, to want to pay that much extra. Those same characteristics make the Volt viable for them.


Your comment is that the PHV is the everyday consumer, then one would expect lots of different card being traded in for it.

You say the Volt is for efficiency enthusiasts, which is true for some since the most commonly traded car (7%) is the Prius. but the next most common cars are Camery, Civic and BMW 3 series. Can you explain why "efficiency enthusiasts" would have been driving those cars. There are many facets to the Volt, Technology, Fuel efficiency, powerful feeling, quiet ride, quality, fit/finish.
Check out the posts at Chevrolet VoltAge - Volt Generates First Time Interest in Chevrolet..
Seen like everyday consumers...

It can be enlightening to look at data, e.g if one look at a poll over on GM-volt.com
Why do you want a plug-in Volt?
The answers were
10% Environmental - I think the Volt will help save the environment.
40.67% Patriotic – We need to get off the addiction to foreign oil.
17.33% Financial - $4 a gallon gas is killing me. I need cheaper transportation.
24.67% Cool Factor – I’m an early adopter and this car is cool.
7.33% Other.


So not very monolithic, and not really efficency enthusiast

 

Ran across article tonight.
Miles-Per-Gallon Is Just Stupid. No, Really, It Is.

Funny point of someone going from a high MPG car buying a different high MPG car and what little comparative impact it has. Impact: savings of money, gas, and environ.

I went from a ~13.5 MPG vehicle to the Volt. I'm at about at 13,500 EV miles so that is 1,000 gallons of gas. Times $4/gal is about $4,000. Since I keep my vehicles for a long time (10+yrs) this looks like a good investment. That is only the money perspective but there are several others. Like are pointed out here: Electric Car Economics: Payback vs. Premium | Business News

Aside: My electrical usage is mentioned in several places (sig) and this thread but in short when I went from a fixed rate plan to a hourly rate plan I ended up paying less per month now that before I bought/charge the Volt so I drive "free".
MyVolt.COM website is getting some life back in it | PriusChat

 

so...EV miles are free? The energy involved with using electricity instead of the energy from gasoline can be ignored? Cool. i want a Volt then. Price and energy usage be damned.

when the general public has a better handle on Kwh for energy consumption, then we will see change to efficient use of both electricity and gasoline. until then, we are stuck with good 'ol MPG, which makes average joe feel good when it's a bigger number...but really doesn't tell the entire story.

 

I've noticed the pattern of Volt's price being quoted with the tax-credit and PHV without.

The tax-credit is also referred to as a "rebate" implying everyone always has enough tax liability to actually collect the entire amount.

Then there's the obvious "saving gas" promoting without regard to electricity emissions or consumption.

It's all quite telling.

 

I've also noticed the avoidance of cost. References are with regard to price instead... an obvious effort to not acknowledge how much the automaker requires for production.

 

Mine are, green too.

Before I got my Volt I never really thought much about my electricity usage at home, just paid the bill. When we ordered the car and charger I started looking closer at what we were doing and what the options were. The first month I had the car my electric bill went down, mostly because I was being more efficient in usage elsewhere in the household.

After a few months we decided to lease a solar panel system, no upfront cost and the company promised the monthly lease payment would be significantly less than our old electric bill, and best of all would be a known quantity and not subject to fluctuations in energy prices. The system went live a couple of months ago. My old electric bill was around $250 a month, last month the power company paid me $14. Our lease payment is $90. So for about 1/3 of my old electric bill I get to drive around everyday on electricity without significant emissions.

How much gasoline does your house make a day?

 

Gonna have to disagree here..The article is right on the mark.. using MPG confuses the average buyer and makes computations difficult. The studies on the issues are very clear. Of course going from 13 to 1000mpg makes a difference, but in general it is easier to do the math if you said you went from 7.4 gallons/100miles to .01gallons/100miles.



Then there is the fact that gas is no longer our only fuel, so we need to use MPGe.. That is good for measuring effeciency, but that is not the focus of most people. And if we have to switch maybe its better to use something else...

Cost of kWh is not free, but when its nearly order of magnitude less than gas its not that bad a first order approximation . I pay .06/kWh, and since I'm getting about 260w/mil, that is .015 cents/mile for the electricity. with gas at 3.89 I pay about $.10 per mile

We can have different measures for gas (MPG or G/100m) and kWh (wh/mile or or kw/100m), but the number one thing people do with (and abuse) MPG is really a measure of cost of fuel, in which case we could use
Mile per Fuel Dollar (MPD) or just cents per mile (which is easier to manipulate).

But since that is still difficult for people to understand I've been using MPG$, miles per gallong dollar equivalent.
(take cost per gallon of gas and divide by cents per mile) I use in this In conversations, effectively taking advantage of the fact that people don't understand MPG but think they do..

So in my sig here stated a time frame and total fuel sources used
From 10/29/11 to 5/29/12, my Volt went 5140 mi on 12.5 Gallons of Premium + 1408kWh of "green" electricity.

Then the total cost and then a set of metrics so people can use what they are comfortable with.
Total gas+kWh costs=$129.92, yielding: 410 MPG, 95.32 MPGe, 153.93 MPG$ (miles per gallon dollar equivalent) or $.0253/mi.


I've been using MPG$ mostly because its a full measure (kWh cost included) and still gets across the vast difference in my vehicle to theirs. Explaining that and how I get it and people are intrigued I can explain why MPG is not even good for measuring gas used..

so I guess its time to go update my sig and add 0.24 gallons/100miles

 

Remove all rebates, tax credits and see where the hybrids stand. Toyota will still be selling.

DBCassidy

 

Been there and discussed that. We point out that companies are allow to invest in the future and make minimal profit (or even loss) on product in their early stages. As you had acknowledged in your own logs, Toyota Invested in the Prius, which was loosing money, for a decade. When that was pointed out, your response was

While I don't think sales are a measure of anything other than actual sales...
Hmm what about the sales in May?

I notice a pattern of you making claims without references. More significantly, I notice that rather than responding to the actual point of posts rebutting your ridiculous market claims (of PHV being aimed at everyday consumers, while the volt is aimed at efficiency enthusiasts) or the discussion on companies making a long term investment , you just keep changing the subject.


It's all quite telling!