How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

Off base, the use of premium fuel, does not provide more spark. It does not provide any spark at all. He must have forgot about - SPARK PLUGS and the GAP provided for electrical SPARK - it, again has nothing to do with fuel. More spark, again occurs on the electrical, or computer controlled side (ie: timing, duration of spark).

The use of premium grade also means it is harder to detonate than regular grade blend.

Also, I had premium go stale just as fast as regular blends. Both break down within a couple of months sitting untreated. It is a myth that premium blend has a longer shelf life.





DBCassidy

 

lol. He probably meant the spark timing could be more advanced. Regular gasoline in an engine designed for premium requires the spark to be retarded.

Premium should have a longer shelf life. Having E0, no alcohol makes the shelf life longer. Think of it this way, the gas goes bad by parts of it evaporating away. If premium has more of the fractions you need, than it can sit longer without going bad. Alcohol evaporates faster. A volt gas tank also will help

 

I'm sticking on track, the thread is about why the Volt will be better than the PiP.

I'm not happy about the EV1's being crushed, but I can understand it from a business point of view. I was not happy that Toyota did not release a plug in back in 2007, but i also understood the business case for it. We cannot change the past, but maybe the Volt will help make up a bit for that. The PiP, not so much.

 

E10 is the regular and premium blend is what we use per EPA mandate. So, the premium breaks down just as fast as regular.
Advancing the spark timing is nothing new, been around since the beginning of the auto era.

DBCassidy

 

You all realize that 80% of all EVs sold by companies besides GM were destroyed as well? I am not sure why everyone gets all upset about GM only, perhaps it is because the EV1 was better than the other alternatives that were destroyed by their respective sellers.

 

My estimates for my driving (see my early post) needs are very clear:
1 - Volt would consume more fuel than PiP.
2 - It would cost me more at the dealer.
3 - It would not allow me to carry a 5th person on board.
4 - My bags wouldn't fit in the trunk.

One thing to praise about Volt is the timing to arrive at the automarket.
And about timings, it only a matter of time (and price) to change that fact to the memory lane. Bit unfair, I know.

But to be more fair, though, it is always interesting to match a Volt against a 1Gen Prius in a long trip. 250miles later, Volt eroded more gallons, and some power form the grid. That explains why 10 years past time are hard to change.

 

Will be? The thread started in January 2011. That future is now.

If you want to discuss what Volt will become, you must also acknowledge the 4th generation Prius.

If the topic is still about the differences when both become available to consumers, then sales are the focus. And in that case, Volt has 4 times the battery capacity and 3 times the tax credit, yet sales are...

 

Sorry, I was just retyping the title of the tread.
The thread has become about how the Volt IS better than the PiP.

I disagree that sales tell the story. In my case better is a technology assessment, not a sales. Beta was better than VHS, just lost on sales for non-technical reasons. Ford F150s out sells all hybrids, does not make it better.

The data on PiP milage has, unfortunately, has shown it is not as good as hoped. Fuelly is at 69mpg overall. Considering the PC PiP MPG spreadsheet which is far more enthusiast that are wiling to enter a lot of data by hand, and likely with a much higher EV ration, the median is 71mpg overall. In comparison the Voltstats.net median is 175MPG.

A PiP is 2K net more than a prius and takes one from 50 to 70mpg overall, or $100 per median MPG gained.

A Volt is 2K net more than a PiP and takes one from 70MPG to 175MPG, or $19 per median MPG gained.


You say you have an near-ideal commute for the PiP? What's your average MPG? Even excluding your long trip, including the other things life throws out, what is your regular (long trip excluded) MPG?

Just about every vehicle is "better" in some dimension. Some people have other reasons for choosing a PiP, just as others choose an SUV or a F150. But if one is worried about reducing gas usage, the numbers paint a pretty clear picture which is "better".

Yes the Volt has a bigger battery and as a EREV has full performance in EV mode. That IS the primary advantage and why overall it is using much less gas!

 

That may not be true on the E0 part. Depends on the state. Some states/areas are still alcohol free for all grades.

That out of the way, gasoline sitting in a can octane rating will drop over time. This is likely why some lawnmowers and such recommend mid grade fuel. Without stabilizers, a can bought at the beginning of the season should still have a high enough octane to run the equipment at the end.

Ethanol is bad for shelf life because it is hygroscopic. It will draw the moisture out of the air until it is about 95% pure. Small amounts of water in the fuel isn't bad for the engine. It may cause some components of sitting fuel to degrade faster. If the ethanol to water ratio hits a certain point it will seperate from the gasoline. I regularly add 91% isopropanol to my canned gas. It helps keep the engines clean and keep the ethanol water mix in solution.

 

...about 5 times greater for the Volt than the Pip domestically to date.

[come on, you walked right into that one ]

 

Pointing out to take account of both fuels is an attack on Volt? Ok...

Regarding the composite MPGe, we have discussed it before from the ukr2's spreadsheet. We cannot use Fuelly because it doesn't keep track of kWh Prius PHV consumed. ukr2's spreadsheet shows Prius PHVs are getting 65 MPGe while Voltstats.net shows 64 MPGe.

A full charge for Volt is not the same as a charge for Prius PHV. Volt takes 4x more electricity per charge. Yet, the bottom line MPGe is lower for being a 4 seater compact car. Yes, it drives better so it is up to people to choose per their priorities. The point that can be made is that Prius PHV is a class bigger than Volt yet more fuel efficient, recharge completes faster with lower purchase price and less tax credit dependency.

Now, coming to the "feel good" chest pounding MPG. That's like comparing penis sizes. My MPG is bigger than yours. Get over it and take account of the electricity required to achieve it as well.

Recharging often is better than paying extra for the oversized battery, not using it and lugging it around, along with the unused gas engine, and coming back home with extra juice left in the battery. Average trip length in the US is about 12-13 miles.

You are paying extra for the green certificate of electricity. As pointed out before, anybody can do that without driving a plugin car. It is a good thing and I praise you for doing it. The actual electricity used to charge your Volt at night is probably from a coal power plant (>80% in your state). As long as you keep charging your Volt at night, there is a reason to keep those coal plants running.

About 13% of our electricity is from renewable sources. Using it to power SUV weight compact car is not really a good thing to brag about. My general statement about considering fuel production includes the remaining 67% (19% nuclear excluded) from fossil fuel. Volt owners powered by fossil fuel remains quiet.

There is nothing wrong with using electricity to power a SUV weight vehicle, as long as it is the only onboard fuel (BEV). The problem I have with Volt is that it has gasoline engine as well and it doesn't use it when it is more suitable (high power/speed) to do so. Prius PHV intelligently selects the optimal fuel(s) to blend and split power. That gives an advantage in efficiency, cost, packaging and overall carbon footprint.

My statements above are not to attack the Volt or to praise the Prius PHV as a perfect car. I am just pointing out the cause/effect or design differences/goals. They are more of a defensive statement for Prius PHV because I see many here getting into the higher MPG the better type of notion. I am saying, look at the big picture (composite MPGe and fuel production carbon footprint), instead of vehicle efficiency from a single fuel (MPG).

In summary, use the EPA's beyond tailpipe emissions site to determine the total (fuel production and vehicle operation) carbon footprint per mile, drive both cars, compare the standard features, interior volume, purchase price, refueling time, the need to buy extra L2 charger or solar panels, etc.

Let's not get into the politics and healthcare cost/lives due to local coal mines and powerplant pollution. I am pro-electrification as well so it will be counter-productive.

A few things to consider... Our military uses a lot of oil to maintain itself. Only a third of the oil we import is from the unfriendly countries. Electricity and gasoline are not a black and white issue. They are more like choosing the lesser evil one and that depends on many situations.

 

I think he was referring to the electric charge it takes to fully charge. ~3.2 kWh for Prius PHV and ~12.9 kWh for the Volt.

 

Imagine what MPG Volt will get with 87 Octane gas. Less than 35 MPG?

Prius PHV gets 50 MPG on 87 Octane gas. The fuel costs less, yet it delivers more MPG.

33.7kWh of electricity is equivalent to a gallon of gas. For every gallon of gas both vehicles consumes, Prius PHV comes ahead with 8.8 kWh. That almost 3 full battery recharges for the Prius PHV. This highlights the importance of gas engine efficiency.

 

I'm glad you are using 33.7kwh/gallon of gas.

I don't understand how the prius phv comes out ahead though. Since electric driving uses so much less energy from the plug or pump, the driving pattern is needed to calculate which is more efficient.

 

As I said in my post the MPGe on voltstats is not a computation based on actual kWr data, its just using EPA numbers (94MPGe for EV) and the EV% ratio. I said that but you still try say the Prius PHV is better. If you do that same for the spreadsheet, (39% EV), for the prius PHV you get 61.16605934 MPGe, so its not better as it does not have a high enough EV ratio. As I said, just the EV ratio is not that meaningful as people may do better in the EV usage. Like I do MPGe on voltstats is 69.9, my real MPGe is 96.62.

How do you measure better?

Recharging often takes more time effort. Average trip may be 12, but average daily milage is 35. And clearly from the data on fuelly and the spreadsheet, needing to plug in often results in much lower overall ev%, so it is only better if measured by cost. If measured by cost, get a yaris or better yet a used car or a bicycle. if you care enough to "go green", the Volt is greener. (Leaf would even greener if it works as your only car of if you have a prius for a second family car.)


Even looking at costs, As I posted earlier using median MPGs
A PiP is 2K net more than a prius and takes one from 50 to 70mpg overall, or $100 per median MPG gained.
A Volt is 2K net more than a PiP and takes one from 70MPG to 175MPG, or $19 per median MPG gained.
A volt is 4K more than a Prius and takes one from 50 to 175MPG overall, or $32 per median MPG gained.
Yes one can throw in the cost of electricity, which varies more significantly.

Actually your first statement is factually wrong -- you cannot buy what you do not use. My volt uses more electricity than the rest of my house combined -- so I more than doubled my wind purchase after getting it. In CO you can only do 110% of your actual usage, even in solar. I could install more panels but they don't have to allow it on the grid.
And so I've shifted most of my commute from gas to renewable energy.

And I'm glad to say is is more likely I'm getting the wind I pay for than coal. In Colorado in 2010, the utilities had to pay over 3Million in curtailment fees to CO wind farms because they did use all the wind we have. (our state overall gets 9% of its power from wind). Our renewable law says they must have certificates to prove my purchases were met. Of course all electrons are fungible so it is impossible to say. But I can report that my power company, which used to have no production of its own, went ahead an installed both solar (9kW) and wind (69kW) of its own so it did not have to buy them from others and as a first-stage test of installations at one of the facilities. And their newsletter said it was entirely because the demand from their customers for green power, and the added fees, allowed them to do it. But its a somewhat capital intensive so their installs are limited. My electricity co-op has seen the demand grow quickly (now 10x their supply) and are now seriously considering the solar-garden and shared wind-concepts I'm been pushing them to do. In these, customers buy materials that are centrally managed and installed, but get direct credit on our bills. (We are a co-op not a for-profit company, so it is within their charter to have community owned assets). Hopefully in 6months we'll be adding a lot more renewable capacity.

You love that SUV label.. huh.. Well guess what the PHV as tested by insideline weighted in at 3600, which is 300 more than the mazda CX-5 SUV... so I guess they are both SUV class in weight..

While you may not like the onboard generator, but your statements are not factual. Yes it is somewhat of a waste, but its better than having to use a use a second car (Leaf + X), unless X has better MPG than a Volt.

Your statement about "optimal fuel usage" is simply not true. I would agree the PHV's model of blending is more efficient, if you will have to use gas on the given trip. But it NOT more efficient when you can do the whole trip in EV. Even for the prius PHV, its EV mode is more efficient than Gas, if you choose to buy green power. Using gas as in the PHV is only "optimal" in the sense that it allowed toyota to not redesign stuff and have a cheaper car.

 

Agreed the Prius PHV is more efficient on regular gas. But that misses the point. The goal is to reduce gas usage, so trading a slightly less efficient engine for a much bigger batter produces a more efficient overall system.

Your analysis presumes they will uses the same number of gallons, which is generally not the case. Median drivers on a PiP are at about 72MPG, Volt drivers at 175MPG. So for every 10,000 miles the median PiP driver will use 2.4 times as much gas as the median Volt driver.

And incase you missed my post
Coal is down to 36% of power generation nation wide. As I had mentioned in some of my earlier posts using old data is somewhat misleading as the grid is getting greener.. and its greening up fast!.

 

And if the Prius engine could take advantage of a higher octane, it would be doing better than 49mpg for the same cost per mile.

Think about it. For the same cost, your could use less fuel and emit less CO2 on your commute.

This depends entirely on the user's situation as to which one is better.

For fun. In order to cover multiple trips, or even a round trip, with electricity, requires the ability to charge at your destination when you have a small battery. This entails spending time finding a suitable outlet or charger. Then, whether or not you have permission, the cord might be lying out for people to trip over. Is the cord securable? These are tough financial times, and copper is going for over $3 a pound. Depending on the day's agenda, there might be time to charge, or you have to find a fast charger.

Multiple recharging during day will almost entirely be taking place during the day. When demand will highest, and the most likely peak plants are natural gas. Cheap and clean, it is still a nonrenewable fossil fuel.

Then there is additional wear and tear to the battery from these recharges. Specially if fast charging is regularly done. The Volt's large pack does add to its Lexus hybrid weight, but the pack will only experience half as many charge and discharge cycles during a year as a Prius PHV charging at home and work. Then the larger pack also means that the pack is not as deeply discharged if the user decides to recharge it as often as the small battery car.

 

I've left regular unleaded in my lawn mowers, snow blowers and my emergency generator for over a year at times with no apparent ill effects...maybe an extra pull on the starter rope.

 

Here's a good statistic:

The Average Driver

• Spends 55 minutes a day behind the wheel
• Drives 29 miles a day

BTS | National Household Travel Survey - Daily Travel Quick Facts

Consider that (1) not everyone is able to charge at work and (2) half the nation drives more than 29 miles per day. The PiP is simply not as good a fit for most people if the primary objective is to reduce gas consumption.

Consider as well that the USA is about to begin natural gas exports. There are definite regional frictions for electrical generation capacity and delivery (thinking NY here, $0.25/kWh is outrageous), but as a country, we are better off to increase our electrical consumption and reduce oil imports. Let's make that 33% of purchases from Venezuela etc. converge to zero.

 

Since when does a technical high make it best?

We haven't seen that in the computer industry.

We haven't in the automotive industry either.

There's always a balance with price.