How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

Which means you are confirming the volt uses less gas in most cases, including yours.

There are other reasons to buy the prius phv. You like the car better. Its less expensive. That's fine. It is definitely a better choice for you. Choice is good. Let's not pretend the prius phv uses less gas except in rare cases where the driver is driving many more miles than the volt is good for.

If the goal is to reduce oil consumption, choice is good. This lets consumers choose what is best for them. Its a false argument to say you expect the prius phv to have higher sales volume, so that means its a better car to chose. This year the ford energi's, rav4 bev, and tesla S will all be out. Even more opportunity for people to choose the appropriate vehicle to use less gasoline.:rockon:

 

Being ambiguous and not actually stating what goals are speaks volumes.

 

Pot calling kettle black??

Just how do you define 'replacement of traditional vehicle production'.

How many, 1? 10? 1000000? All of them?
What is a 'traditional vehicle'?

 

Its talk like that, and you pointing to posts you make on volt fan sites that make you sound like someone that is just posting because they hate gm.

This is a thread about which car is better for a prospective purchaser, but you are putting it in your narrow little anti-gm mindset. My goal is to get more plug-ins out on the streets, and I don't think I have have been ambigous about that.

+1

 

And if someone does the math I would agree with you. But just saying taking occasional road/highway trips, is just a self-perception problem. It likely means you have not actually done the math as it takes lots of long trips + only short trips for commuting make it up. Understanding often starts by accurate look at data.

You'd have to have lot of long highway/road trips to make the MPG difference, including the premium gas difference. It depends on EV/HV ratio and long trips. Why don't you describe a mix and we can analyze it for you.


And if you get 53HV MPG in a prius you'd be getting 45 or better in a Volt on long trips. (EPA highway is 40, and I usually do much better, see http://priuschat.com/forums/chevrolet-volt/108629-volt-mileage-data-130-mile-trip.html)

You may be surprised how well a Volt might do for your commute. Until one runs the numbers its not very intuitive, but only 10miles difference on highway it takes a lot of highway miles to make up for the normal commute miles.

 

How many times much I restate the same goals?

 

So Volt is not good for a limit of miles...
What if its battery was smaller? :deadhorse:

 

Restating vague and undefined terms won't do much good. If you have defined them more explicitly I appologize. A link would be sufficient.

So again, you mention success is replacing traditional vehicle production with more efficient vehicles.

In another thread you mention profit being necessary. Does that mean the in the early years of the Prius, it was worse than other cars that made a profit?

How many? I bet at least one person that replaced a F-150 with a much more efficient Volt, does that count?

Please give use a link to your definition so we can determine what cars fit it.

 

I just bought an imiev for the daily grind, which for me is less than 25 miles. I don't intend to charge it anywhere except home...and maybe my office. When you consider I paid $29, 411, (before the federal tax credit) and that was with the cold weather package and chaedemo charger , the volt is over priced...But it is an option for someone who can only own one car and needs the long range.

 

Considering the iMiev has the same size battery, is a tiny car, has a max speed of 80mph, a smaller motor, no engine, and is slow as tar in terms of acceleration you only saved $10,000 from buying a volt. It is clear the Volt is a far better deal in terms of what you get for what you spend. Now a person might not want those things which is fine. However it does show the iMiev is clearly overpriced

 

Just 2 days earlier in this very thread (post #912) I provided specifics.

Keep in mind that 2 years ago, the Volt enthusiasts were standing absolutely firm on Volt selling 60,000 here in this market the second year, demanding we must all wait then until before drawing any conclusion.

Now, those specific individuals deny that ever happened. So, I apologize for being brash sometimes when asked to repeat what I have already posted literally a hundred times. It's difficult to interpret intent.

Long story short, Toyota has been quite specific over the years, setting very clear goals for market penetration. Having that level of detail from them set the expectation of the same from other automakers... especially any who are depending heavily on tax credits. The first goal I remember from Toyota was the 300,000 total. It seemed so far off, knowing it would take years for that many too be purchased. Has that ever changed!

As for profitability, a design must be configured to make a profit. Whether it does initially or not is a seperate matter, since a buffer (like tax credits) can be used to help initial rollout... which begs the question of when that should expire.

Volt depends upon an expensive system. Motor, Engine, and Transmission alone are very costly. Just look at the struggle Two-Mode has had with that. Then there's the battery. Using 16 kWh is a killer. At currently just under $700 per kWh (excluding support components), it dooms the vehicles to sticker-shock.

What does having a showcase vehicle, but selling mostly Cruze accomplish? When will favor shift?

Notice how Corolla has been dethroned as #2 in Toyota's line up, replaced by Prius.

 

Considering he's buying it for commuting only, he doesn't need to carry along 3 empty seats. Max 80mph is a problem?? - for someone going >80mph, saving energy clearly isn't a priority, so why even bother with an EV?? Not lugging along an ICE when you don't need one sounds like a plus rather than a minus. "Slow as tar"?? If he's commuting on suburban roads he doesn't need a rocketship, and with skill you don't need it on highways either.

Sounds like it fits his niche perfectly, especially considering he also has a Prius-III for longer trips. Just as the Volt fits a different niche. And the PIP another.

 

I have some questions, which (sorry!!) have probably been answered somewhere in the previous 950 posts on this thread:
(1) When the Volt battery has reached its lower limit, the car goes into CS mode? At this point can the ICE recharge the battery, or does the battery stay at the lower SOC limit until the car is plugged in again?
(2) Same question for the PIP. Obviously you want to plug it in if you stop with the battery at its lower limit, but will the ICE top off the battery if the SOC drops while driving?
(3) Could you use the PIP without plugging it in, if you avoided heavy EV usage before parking it?
(4) For the PIP, do you have to push the EV button to get it to run EV? Otherwise, does it function like a plain Prius-III with a larger battery, juggling ICE and battery use as needed? I gather that the PIP can provide more thrust and run at higher speeds before the ICE kicks in, but is it basically similar to the plain Prius??
(5) With the plain Prius-III, you can tap it into N on a downhill. When you do this at >46mph, the ICE stays on but fuel flow drops from about 0.35GPH to 0.20GPH. I would assume that the same thing happens with a PIP? Does the same thing also happen in the Volt? People with ScanGauges in their PIP's and Volts could answer this???

Sorry if these are dumb questions.

 

Congrats on the purchase the iMev should be a fine commuter box. I think anyone would agree that a iMev+Prius combined are more efficient family solution than just a Volt, if that works for you. Even More efficient than leaf + Prius.

I'll point out, however, that many people with 2 cars have other constraints (hauling, awd for snow), so the volt is not just for families with just 1 car.. its families with 1 free choice.

With respect to price, if you think the iMev spartan interior and just want a basic commuter than yes, for you volt is priced to high.
That is not its target market. On the other hand the price of iMev+2010Prius is > price of Volt so the price alone is not a fair comparison unless you feel you could you live with the iMev as your only car. Do you?

Though the real comparison point for you is the Leaf. Why the iMev over the Leaf?

And for this thread, why the iMev over the Prius Plugin?

 

Prius is a FULL hybrid, whether it has a plug or not. Behavior is the same. You will see the charge-level being replenished. When there's excess power available (from running the engine at optimial efficiency), the battery will indeed be recharged.

It's not going to restore all of it though, since that would defeat the purpose of the plug. You'll get a mile or so, sometimes more depending upon the circumstances.

Just drive it. When EV is used up, it becomes a 50 MPG Prius.

EV is default. You have to push the button to prevent use of the plug-supplied electricity.

 

The only dumb questions are the ones you think you know the answers to but don't and did not ask to find the correct answers.

It says at/near the minimum SOC until plugged in. There are some games one can play with Mountain Mode, to build a slightly larger buffer (for climbining really big mountains in CO), but nothing will do a full recharge. And Mountain Mode recharging is not as efficient. It is also useful to get a little charge for a test drive if the dealer is a moron and has not charged it. 15 min or mountain mode and you have about a 10mile EV range.

No engine-based recharged to full, just try to keep it a minimum SOC (so it recharges in an HV prius battery sense). You can drive up a big hill, switch to EV mode and get a bit of regen to store, switch to HV and repeat.. but that's just silly.

There are PiP owners with no intention of ever plugging in, they bought it for the HOV pass. It should run find, like regular Prius.

In a Volt it will depend on your battery level and speed.

If you have a battery deficit (i.e. below minimum SOC of 22) the volt engine would drop to about 1400 RPMs (did not measure GPH flow in torque). If you are above 22 then the engine will shut off.

Here is how speed matters. The CS modd process at say 55mph is a charge cycle (going from 20/21 up to 22 or 23, then shut off), then drive EV down to 21 and restart and run in CS at 1600-1700rpm and accumulate a bit of charge. At 65 its 1600-1700 rpm and rarely shuts off (depnds on temp and terrain). At 75mph its 1800-1900 rpm and I've never had the ICE shut off at that speed.

 

Is the Volt powertrain that more more that the PiP? I haven't looked, but I know that MSRP on new ICE+trans for a GIII is around $17K.

The tax credit covers $417 per kWh, on the first 200,000 vehicles per manufacturer, at minimum 5 kWh and maximum 16 kWh. Why the PiP gets the cred at 4.4 kWh is puzzling, since the tax code says 5. Anyway, the point here is that the tax credit covers a good portion of the marginal cost for adding battery capacity, which can give the automaker a chance to have large battery production runs, thereby lowering the initial cost, and opening the possibility that the experience of a higher level of mass production will lead to a lower cost/kWh in the future, when the credit expires.

So, this shows the two ways that automakers are playing the credit, either doing to bare minimum to make a qualifying car, or doing 16 kWh or more to maximize the credit.

Is your contention that Toyota limited the PiP to 4.4 kWh, so that when the tax credit expires, it will still be a profitable car?

 

Indeed. Why then do you think Toyota have succeeded where GM has failed?

I re-read your #912, and I still don't see how the PiP is superior. Somewhere in this thread I provided the example that Volt users are getting 175 MPG at the 50th percentile, while PiP is 75 MPG at the 50th percentile.

The Volt saves 80% the amount of gas versus its comparable non-hybrid/PHV counterpart at GM, based on real world statistics. Mission accomplished.

The PiP saves 33% the amount of gas versus a Gen III, based on real world statistics. A small step in the right direction, but still leaves a lot of room for improvement.

 

There are many markets that do not tax credit/fund on purchase... (Portugal, Germany)
Sometimes road tax or registration exemptions may be given...
Government incentives for plug-in electric vehicles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

So, be thankful that EVs and PHVs are being heavily subsidized by the government in the world's largest new car market.