Aptera electric car saved by Chinese-American partnership

lol that thing won't sell more than a dozen a year.

Hmmm, why were't they successful in obtaining a loan for $150 million?

 

I don't think the US is going to be their target market... They could probably sell a few in China (say 0.01% of the market i.e. 100,000). Not clear why they would even care about the US market. The US is addicted to gasoline powered cars, has a failing economy, is genuinely fearful of innovation in transport (most are dismissive of the Prius, a car barely different from all others on the road). The US's most recent innovations in transportation are all in museums.

'Looks like an airplane' directly translates to 'extremely aerodynamic' which directly translates to 'cheap to drive'...

 

Wish them luck. I suspected, but still sorry, that they wouldn't be successful here.

 

Chinese motorcycle company with deep pockets is taking a venture roll here. It seems like a decent risk to them. They get to buy the intelectual property cheap, and see if they can sell to those that already raised there hands.

There is an interesting wrinkle here. The aptera is classified as a motorcycle for us laws. That means a phev doesn't have to comply to car safety and emissions laws only motor cycle. There could be a big market if they can make the body cheap enough.

 

I think it's great that the design has been revived. I hope it makes into production this time.

You sound like a GM executive talking about the Prius.

The original design and construction resulted in a surprisingly strong and lightweight structure. This is not the place to cheap out.

 

I could not disagree more strongly. Aptera was already claiming that its composites were less expensive. If the Chinese can cut the cost of the body that will be key to hitting a plug=in niche.

I'm not saying make the car unsafe, but lets face it, the car will not do well in a head on with a tundra. Its tiny. People are not going to buy it because its a safe vehicle. If you can cut costs by using more metal and less composite, this makes sense even if it makes the car a little heavier. Put the aptera up against a big SUV and its going to lose, and I'm sure most of the customers understand this.

You can tell Aptera's new parent wants to cut costs on the body since they are moving that manufacturing to china

 

They say the same thing about the Prius. And they are wrong. Tundra safety rating 9.2; Prius 9.4. Prius is a safer car.

There is a lot to be said for being a lot lighter than other thing in a collision, especially if you can turn an inelastic collision into an elastic one. One should try it oneself before invoking 'simple physics'. (It is in fact such complicated physics, that even with massive supercomputers, they still do actual destructive tests)

It isn't clear to me how adding metal is going to make the car cheaper if, as you say they claim, the composites are already cheaper.

 

Or perhaps they would rather employ their own countrymen, rather than expensive foreigners.

 

If the Aptera can be made with less expensive labour, all else being equal, then sure. Compromising the safety and performance by using thicker and heavier fibreglass is what I meant by 'cheap out'. You can't use unskilled labour and a chop gun to replace careful hand lamination with quality materials and expect to end up with a similar product.

 

I'm not sure again who they are, but the prius is a heavy 4 door car, this is a 1800 lb 3 wheeled motorcycle. I still ride my bicycle on the streets with cars, but don't expect it will hold up well in a crash.

Who said anything about invoking physics? Its really common sense. You knock 1 wheel off a tricycle it won't handle well. People buying it understand the risks. No sense saying how safe this thing will be. Why not cut the price if you can? But if you know the physics tell me how this thing will be safer than a prius.

Aluminum is normally much cheaper than carbon fiber. That's why I have a bicycle that uses carbon fiber where it helps the most, and aluminum in some other areas. Aptera was claiming their composites were cheaper than higher end ones used in other car production. VW has broken off some prices, prices do rise. Its not magic. It may be simply a less expensive process to make composites, or it may include more metal.

Then you need to explain why they are doing the bulk of it in california.

If a Chinese/American company can bring out some of these super efficient plug-ins at a good price, I'm all for it. I doubt any of the big automakers will try. VW will sell a few of their prototype XL1's next generation, but they will be very expensive.

 

My point was that people's intuition is often wrong in this arena.

Worse and worse. Common sense doesn't even work on simple collision cases. Most people can't predict how pool balls will move in even slightly unusual circumstances, and that is about as simple a case as is interesting.

Because then it wouldn't be as safe? The CEO is on record as saying that they would be willing to test it against car crash standards, not even taking the easy motorcycle way out. That says a lot about how someone who has actually seen the car thinks it will perform in a crash (and who has a financial stack in it performing well).

As I said, even if I know the Physics (i.e. all the specs), that wouldn't tell me enough to judge how safe it is. It will need to be tested by the professionals, and I plan to take their word for it, just like every other car, and not listen to some layman's 'common sense'.

I can't make any sense out of this. Can you try again?

That's where it currently is. I expect a gradual move to China, particularly if it sells as well here as some people are predicting (i.e. 12 (which is of course wrong since 5,000 put down deposits)). I just hope I don't have to import one special, when it comes time for my next car. This loss of jobs to China can be laid (mostly) directly on the American people, not on some cold-hearted corporation. Though the morons at DOE who care whether an energy efficient vehicle has 3 vs 4 wheels get some blame.

 

I'm sorry, what. People don't expect 3 wheeled motorcycles to be as safe as a car. They don't need to be. I certainly would require the appropriate crash tests to prove they were safer. Even then it is difficult to say if this would be an advantage. They would need crash test data against SUVs, and here, I really doubt 3 wheels is going to give you roll over stability. Why not build the cars to a price instead of a 4 star safety rating. IF you start bragging you got a 4, then it immediately brings out its not as good as a 5.
Crash tests show small car ratings are misleading - USATODAY.com

Well if you want the safest car, then you are not buying a 3-wheeler. If you remember said CEO went bankrupt. They just need to show the cars are safe enough. I'm sure if safety is a high priority a leaf or volt will be chosen over an aptera. Are you telling me you want to hamper a very efficient car with being one of the safest too? I don't think it its a good goal.

What are you blabbering on about. I did get through advanced physics. The safest bike is the one that doesn't crash. Let's let the drivers decide if its safe enough. Why do you have to bring these over packed car safety tests into it.

I can tell you where the point of view came from. The original DOE loan program only applied to cars. Aptera went before congress and got the law changed to enclosed vehicles. Then aperera was qualified to apply for a loan, but was rejected, as it probably should be. Fisker did get a loan, but is in technical default. Fisker seemed to rush things to try to not default, and this may have hurt them. Since then Fisker has found new investers. This is venture capital.

Many thought that aptera needed to partner with a motorcycle company, and IIRC Harley comes to mind. The guys starting the compnay lack manufacturing experience. I hope this Chinese funding gets a vehicle to market. It is high risk, high reward, not something the DOE should be doing. Aptera was paying a company in Michigan to make the bodies, those jobs instead will go to china. The Chinese motorcycle company, Jonway group, has some expertise. This will keep american design, marketing, and assembly with american motors and batteries, although I think the transmission and brakes are Bosch made in Germany and america. If Jonway just wanted the design and patents they would not be pouring money into the us operations. They are expecting to sell the first ones in california which has the advantage of HOV access for single driver vehicles like this one.

 

By reason of its having but three wheels in contact with the ground,
Aptera always was a motorcycle for purposes of safety regulation.
There never has been an "Aptera electric car."


One of the many Aptera configurations, a later one IIRC.

However, solely for purposes of access to
development funding under the Fed's DOE Advanced Technology
Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM) program a special class of vehicles was
cobbled together to allow Aptera and another 3-wheeled vehicle from
Elio Motors to get in on the bounty: the "enclosed three-wheeled cars
that can average at least 75 mpg (or equivalent, for plug-in models)
and are designed to carry at least two adults" class. Sadly, Aptera
failed in its bid.

But on the road, it's still a motorcycle... with a single hard shell helmet
enclosing up to two passengers.

FWIW, in Europe, there are 4 wheeled motorcycles:
http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-h...tera-3-wheel-car-now-4-wheel-motorcycles.html

 

I didn't mean use unskilled labor, I meant find a less expensive process. The idea is to reduce costs for the run of thousands, not to build the few prototypes that have been done so far. IIRC aptera used a company that mainly did composites for small runs for the military. A motorcycle manufacturer should be able to do better. The aptera guys have expertise in design but not manufacture. Skilled labor for building bodies is likely lower in china than Holland Michigan.

The main safety cage in the aptera is already steel and aluminum, which would not change with composite changes.

Its not rocket science, its material science.

You need a lot more money to get a car legal to run in the US than a motorcycle. Aptera should take advantage of that. I doubt the bumpers could possibly comply with all the car standards without major design changes. Motorcycle exhaust for a phev also has a much easier test.

 

Regulations stipulate
Importation and Certification FAQ's Directory--Motorcycles and Scooters

Which is why Aptera got the legislation changed to include enclosed motorcycles being able to get DOE loans. A motorcycle doesn't need to deal with as much regulatory burden as a car, another good thing for aptera.

The DOE loan was denied. But Aptera was able to find more funding, which is a good thing, with a company with manufacturing experience. This makes the high risk venture, a little less risky.

 

Most safety tests involve crashes against objects of similar weight to the vehicle. I would have no problem driving an Aptera or a Smart, but the reality is most of the other vehicles on the road are bigger than you, and that puts you at a disadvantage in a crash.