Gasoline tax

Go live in Europe, then. And take your $10 a gallon in gas taxes with you.

Because any poll of Americans will show that the vast majority do not want higher fuel prices. And that number would climb even higher once they realize you intend to lay down billions of $ in mass transit lines that nobody wants to ride anyway.

Or is it to buy some carbon offsets? I'm afraid I'm not quite on top of the latest scheme to fleece the working man out of his hard-earned $ as you are, so whatever plan you had in mind, insert it here.

And with that I'm bowing back out, because I feel like I'm trying to teach some reason into a mule.

 

^a couple of points. First, what the "majority of Americans want" is different from what is right for America. For example, I don't want to pay $10/gallon for fuel, but I want sane environmetal policy, sane energy policy and sane energy security policy. To get there may require some sacrifice on my (and everyone else's) part.

Second, the price trend of all energy is rising and has been for at least 30 years. You may not like the concept of $10 gas, any more than I like the concept of $4 gas, coming from $.28 gas of my youth, but the price is inexorably going to rise, ultimately to that point.

I have always contented that the way to sane energy policy in the net, is to control the rise in energy prices to the extent that you can. For example, it was suggested a couple of dozen years ago that we gradually increase gas taxes to ~$1/ gal. The effect of such a tax would have been to (futher) increase efficiency in our total use of energy, and to use some of the revenue to fund your hated mass transit. ( which by the way, people do use, in ever increasing numbers, and indeed they do use if the systems are designed and built to be reliable and frequent, the keys to increasing ridership. Do you think that mass transit agencies hve gone to double busses because "no one is riding" the single busses?)

We pay the cost of the $1/gal gas tax now ( and more) but the benefit has not gone to us, but rather to big oil, OPEC and Wall St. speculators. The bottom line is that I enjoy gas costs that are $1.50 a gallon compared to my neighbor, simply by being more efficient. My Prius (@~$20k, compared to his V8 Jeep at about the same price) gets ~52 mpg, he gets perhaps 15, not to mention he is not very smart about his trips from all appearance. If we had doubled CAFE standards we would all have benefited from a similar savings. Clearly, as a Prius drivers, we know that a good fuel mileage is not rocket science. It is not too hard to imagine a further doubling of mpg with EVs and Plug in hybrids, further reducing the impact of higher energy costs on the consumer, while benefiting the environment, national security etc.

Icarus

 

Some good points....

Here are some counter points. YMMV....

"Can" be sometimes.... however (COMMA!) that "self-determination" thing can be real hard to get over once once you get used to it. America has something of a history with this. Europe does too. They're somewhat different, as you can imagine. The dice are still jiggling in the cup WRT most of the EU's socio-economic success post Marshall Plan, where they essentially got re-booted from WW-twice.
YMMV...but I'm not quite so optimistic that they're illuminating the "better way forward."
Anybody catch this weekend's elections over there????
Like I keep saying, I'm not so sure they've got the answer.

Concur.
When I was driving trucks made by Tonka, a Corvette was $5000. Houses were $16,000. We've all been there. Energy prices, like all other commodities will seek their own level. Maybe I'm naive, but I can't help but to presume that if BP could sell gas for $.50 a gallon cheaper than Exxon, they'd be all over it like a bum on a bologna sandwich!
Also...There's an inflationary feedback loop with energy prices that can be exacerbated by artificially inflated energy prices. Poor people have poor options. They drive older cars. They don't usually buy Gucci, hip, focus group tested food.
They buy Wonder bread, Kroger meat, and Farm Fresh milk---cause it's cheaper!!!
You can tax oil all you want to, but oil companies don't pay those taxes. They're going to make about the same profit that they're making NOW. After they they pay their help and buy their hardware, they pay dividends into everybody's 401(k) accounts, pay their BODs. and pay off the government....they set oil prices. Maybe not in that order....but a $1 a gallon gas TAX is going to result in about a....(you guessed it!) additional $1 a gallon price spike at the pump.

America has a solid history with shared sacrifice...where there is a shared goal. I'm just not so sure we have the latter, and without that....it seems a lot more like mandated sacrifice. YMMV....

It took me a little bit to get my head around all of that, but I think I get your point, and I don't know your neighbor enough to judge how smart he is about his trips, nor do I feel similarly empowered to judge MY neighbor. He has a Ford pickup that gets maybe 12-mpg, but he also has 200 acres and about 60 cows. Somehow...I don't think he's going to stick a Prius in his garage. I don't know how the CAFE regulations are going to impact people like him ten years down the line, but I'm thinking that he's going to get more of the "sacrifice" than some code-slinger that wants to live in the burbs, and whose vehicle "requirements" include things like blue tooth, and self parking.
The law of unintended consequences is a real bitch sometimes.
Keep over taxing, over regulating, and pretty soon.....small farmers and small businesses go bye-bye.
Then you're left with Big Ag...Big Retail...Big Wall Street, all led merrily along by Big Gov.
I'm not against regulation or taxes, but let's not loose sight of what the purposes of each really are.

Carrots and sticks looks a lot like sticks and sticks if you don't eat carrots!

 

Not wanting europe's high percentage gas tax, and what is right for america, happen to be the same thing. The percentage tax magnifies any price spikes, causing any damage to the economy to increase. I can easily afford $10 gas and even an ev, but many of my friends can not. Do we want to institute a tax that helps destroy the social safety net?

Now there are many good reasons to increase the gas tax in an intelligent way. Life isn't fair, and we should not ignore good ideas simply because they hurt the poor. Gas taxes have dropped per capita since the last increase in '93, with reduced fuel consumption. Higher oil taxes is economically a better way to reduce oil consumption than mandates like cafe standards.

InflationData: Historical Oil Prices Chart

Oil prices adjusted for inflation are about where they were in December of 1979. There are severe spikes and troughs. Looking at macro economic indicators though the price of oil should rise faster than inflation in the coming decade. A slowly rising oil tax that is not related to the current price is the best way to improve consumption. If you only tax gasoline and diesel, heating oil and other uses will not also decline in use. Heating oil is almost the same fraction as diesel.

That is a reasonable position, and you will note that $1/gal is much lower than the european rate of about the cost of gas If it is going to change behavior it should go in gradually, not all at once. Otherwise it is a spike, people get used to the higher price and go back to buying less efficient vehicles. If they know its going up every year they have time to plan for efficiency.

The amount of mass transit should be a separate decision. Raiding new taxes is a favorite government tactic to add even more. If there is a need for more mass transit it is independent of the revenue from an oil tax.

Opec is going to charge what they charge. Its a little insane to expect that higher taxes will drop the cost of oil in the US, when punitive taxes in Europe have had no effect.

IMHO if we had doubled cafe, we would have gotten a small benefit, but remember cars age. You will have a severly reduced benefit. CAFE is economically inefficient, while an oil tax will increase its efficiency. If oil taxes and cafe were raised in the early '90s we would have been much better prepared for the price spike in '06-now. The spike got cafe raised, but we should do the next part.

 

Good posts are hard to pass up. Pretty good one for getting different viewpoints aired.

Everyone recognizes the need to change directions from the unsustainable course we are on. The core of the discussion is the best methods. A dramatic hike in gas tax is often thought of resulting in (only) an improvement in transportation efficiency and less fuel use. What if the result is a dramatic shift to using electricity wastefully? Tax electricity at 100% or greater rate? Then what's next on the tax Whack-A-Mole approach?

Don't forget that we made fantastic progress with CFCs and Ozone Layer preservation almost entirely with regulation and education. CFC taxes not needed. A lession I took to heart.

Also, the lowest hanging fruit is a vast improvement in conservation and efficiency. Certainly your main thrust and one that I 100% support and agree with. To me that is an education problem, not a tax problem.

I think most Prius Drivers have figured that out. The task at hand is to successfully educate the larger public of this point.

The government is so much better, in the long term, at evolving local regulations that address the problem. Leave taxes as the revenue component, not the social engineering component. Maximize education, local access, and freedom. There is nothing wrong with hard limits on pollution, removing externalities, and getting government out of the technology favoritism business.

 

flaPd,

We are in basic agreement,, if you remove externalities, and all subsidies on all energy, I would be quite happy as RE could send very nicely on it's own.

I would only add, that if you move from wasting petro on transport to wasting electricity for transport, you are still way ahead from a net energy basis, simply because electric motors are very much more efficient than ICEs. (they also don't have to idle) So even factoring in net charging loses electric cars could easily Be twice as efficient (or more) than a similar ICE car. Couple that with the ability to utilize PV and wind and you have a winning combination. (not to mention the ability of electric vehicles to actually sell back to the grid at times of peak demand, reducing idle spinning capacity of the grid that is just there waiting fl the spike.). All in all, a very winning energy strategy.

Get rid of the subsidies for oil, charge the real cost of coal and gas and let's see how much the price of gas is effected.

Icarus

 

Loved it. Used to commute between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Driving was great. And the Dutch were the ultimate suburbanites. I'd take backroads home in the evening, the cool homes on all the canals, everybody having dinner on their boat.

You seem confused. We don't have a $10 gas tax to take. We need it in the US so we get as energy efficient as the Dutch and other advanced European economies. Then US would not have to spend $500B a year importing oil, or $500B on military to secure the oil and we'd be halfway to meeting our climate change obligations of 80% reduction by 2050.

But if you asked them would you pay $10 gallon if it was to save their nation and the world their kids are going to live in from disaster would you do it. They might surprise you. Of course they all voted for Reagan and Bush twice so you'll never go wrong underestimating their intelligence.

 

...higher gasoline/energy taxes make some logical sense, but it is a regressive tax which hurts the less affluent, who cannot afford Prii/EV, the most. This is one problem with higher gaso taxes in USA.

 

But the gasoline tax is a AVOIDABLE tax. We don't want people to pay the gasoline tax. We want them to NOT USE GASOLINE and NOT PAY THE TAX.

Huge amount of elasticity in gasoline use. Phasing in the tax over eight years so consumers and manufacturers can both adjust, providing lots of mass transit for people, everyone could adapt with change in commuting habits, methods and new fuel efficient cars which would have a tax credit.

 

Some of those are good ideas (mass transit etc) but reshaping America is probably a longer term project.

 

Have no idea what "reshaping America" means. US needs to focus on very specific, measurable goals of increasing US energy efficiency to European standards, 50% more energy efficient than US. US this upgrade to current best standards to eliminate oil imports, the single biggest threat to US national security and reason we have been fighting continuous oil war in the Middle East for 21 years.

One of the major ways Europeans got their transportation system more energy efficient was higher gasoline tax so that consumers would use less gasoline while using the tax to fund transportation alternatives like world class mass transit systems and sustainable energy industry and jobs.

 

in "late" to this and only read the first page, but its gone to blaming the government for the taxes we pay or dont pay and the result of said actions.

for one thing; the government is not to blame. they are paid puppets financed by big business. we wonder where the money went?

the government does not have it, we dont have it, so who is left? and what are they doing with that money? but anyway, not going down that road.

in WA, they have decided to institute a flat $100 EV fee which is fair. if calculating the gas tax the Prius paid last year, it was just below that figure so it is about right for me, but there are many Leaf owners who drove MUCH less than i did so WA did it wrong.

they did not take weight or miles driven into consideration. as far as where the miles are driven? i say if you live here, you pay taxes here and whether you drive here 90% of the time and 10% in another state, you will still pay 100% of the mileage driven.

now, there ALWAYS exceptions to consider especially if you can prove you only live in the state part time (snowbirds) and you provide the expense of ferrying your EV to AZ or wherever each winter, ok i am with that.


but the national gas tax has not been raised since 1992 and why has it not? a bridge collapse was not enough to encourage Congress to get more money to maintain the bridges which would have been nice since most are barely passing (D- is passing technically)

but then again, raising the gas tax is simply too transparent an action. Each member of Congress must show which way they voted. too bad really. if they could do secret balloting, a lot more would get done and we wouldnt be so screwed but oh well

but going back to taxes, i cannot believe we are up in arms over monitoring state gas tax revenue over a possible weekend trip across the border but allow nearly every major US company to incorporate overseas for the sole express solitary reason of avoiding paying tax to the primary country responsible for their survival.

 

What about increase the gas tax but add in measures to reduce unwanted effects? Perhaps businesses and those with low incomes can get discount cards that take off the extra tax. Or put a huge additional tax on plus and premium gas, but leave the regular stuff alone.

Or what about a tax that only applies when buying more than, say, 15 gallons of gas. It would inconvenience the SUV drivers by making them fill up more often or paying the tax.

 

Welcome to Tax-Whack-A-Mole. For most every legislative initative there usually is "tailoring". This quickly becomes known as a loophole and what was planned (reduced gas consumption) ends up being a black market. Your discount cards would explode as every family would declare itself a business for the gas discount.....this followed by modified legislation to declare families cannot be a business......followed by.... You get the idea.

(e.g. If the tax applies for more than 15 gallons. What stops an SUV driver from only filling up 15 gallons.....three times at the same pump?)

 

For that, they are very much to blame. By allowing themselves to be corrupted and manipulated, most current regimes have become the antithesis of what good government should be. We need leaders with strength and vision, not puppets.

 

Have a sensor detect when the vehicle changes and reset the counter based on that. Or you could have a camera check the license plate every time and it would be obvious if a SUV driver was trying to bypass the tax.

 

Gasoline subsidies total $200 billion a year, making it dirt cheap in some countries

 

And how much would this cost to implement? What about the Prius drivers taking their full 15 in a gas can for use in their minivan or to sell on the black market?