Nickel Metal Hydride Battery

Except for the PiP, the Prii aren't intended to be operated as EV's. The nimh pack assists and supplements the ICE to reduce emissions and boost MPGs, and in that role the proven nimh pack serves well! Once Toyota has good data on the Li-Ion packs performance I'm sure they will become standrd in all the models, but it's really not needed in the current lineup.

 

I do not know about just as durable. As I think we've already stated earlier, it hasn't been in use in automotive applications nearly as long as NiMH.

As for the last statement, do you really think most Prius c buyers would care that much about the HV battery chemistry vs. say whether there's nav, cruise control, SKS, a split folding rear seat, cloth vs. Softex etc.? If they switched the current Prius c design to lithium ion, what would they gain? Some cargo room under the rear seat? Are people going to shy away from the Prius family because of NiMH and instead choose a competitor because it has li-ion?

Heck, there are still people who think that non-plugin hybrids can and need to be plugged in besides all the other hybrid misinformation out there.

 

Toyota stiffed us with NiMH car that only gives us the best MPG out of a non plug. Also 2500lbs is to heavy! It should be 2000lbs car ! Also charging me over 20k for the car, what load! They should be happy taking our strong currency that keeps on printing. For the price and my US dollar I should get everything now damnit!

Hey Toyota I hear Afganstan is a Lithium rich country. Show me the Lithium!

 

I for one refuse to get a car with a lithium-ion battery until that battery technology has had significantly more real-world testing. Call me old-fashioned, but it's only in the past year that I even started considering a hybrid vehicle, that because the NiMH batteries HAVE had sufficient road time to be proven.

It may be fun to always to have the "latest and greatest," but you often end up wasting your resources and getting frustrated when it doesn't pan out. I'm too busy now to do beta testing.

 

Not proven? Lithium-ion is proven enough for the PIP, but not the Prius c? Lithium-ion is proven enough for Tesla, Chevrolet, Nissan, and many others as well. This argument makes no sense.

What would they gain? More electrical oomph and lighter weight for better gas mileage, better acceleration, and better handling also. Toyota went to all the trouble and expense of using high strength steel and aluminum to keep weight down and then gave up much of that advantage with much heavier, mostly obsolete (but cheaper) batteries.

All those "options" that Toyota is charging thousands for cost them only a few dollars to add. Entune? Many people will throw that away and buy a much superior aftermarket unit for pennies on the dollar to what Toyota charged them. I would much have preferred that Toyota keep the interiors largely unchanged from one level to another and offered drive train improvements instead. Something like this using level 1 as a starting point:

level 2- add alloy wheels and rear disc brakes
level 3- add lithium ion batteries
level 4- plug-in electric-only capability; say 5-mile range.

 

Between the level 1 and 2 Toyota is charging almost $1000 for cruise control, split rear seats, and a cheap plastic cover for the back. C'mon!
That's good value for money spent?

Between level 2 and 3 they're charging $1735 for a crappy Entune system that everyone is complaining about and other similarly gimicky gadgets that doesn't cost Toyota $100 to add.

Between level 3 and 4 buyers cough up another $1600 for alloy wheels, fake leather seats, fog lamps...all things that folks could buy aftermarket and get much better quality for much less money. This is pure profit for Toyota and their dealers.

Anyway, to each their own. I certainly won't be paying Toyota's usurious prices for all that junk. I'm just saying I would have appreciated an upgrade path to Lithium-ion batteries instead, and I'm standing by that.

Maybe next year...

 

Of course it makes sense. You're just refusing to to see sense.

The lithium-ion use as a traction battery for a vehicle is a recent development. The Prius has been around for over a decade with the nickel metal hydride battery.

It will be DECADES--assuming wide adoption of LIoN batteries--before the lithium ion technology can hope to even catch up to the sheer millions of miles that have been put on nickel metal hydride batteries!

The relative maturity of the two battery technologies is not a matter of debate at the current time.

Relative pros and cons are always reasonable to discuss.

 

There is a lot of intelligent minds out there that
someone will invent a rechargable battery that
will be lightweight, and reasonably inexpensive.

Remember this, electicity has no weight, so in theory a battery could be made that weighed under 20 lbs but could have
the containment of 1,000 KW, enough for well over
a 1,000 miles in a passenger size car.

A battery of this type will be a real game changer
not just in the auto industries but in every aspect
of our lives.

 

I don't know if you're being serious.

Really? How much do other comparable currently sold cars in the US weigh? Per 2012 Honda Fit - Specifications - Official Site, the Fit is (for example), 2496-2628 lbs and it's not a hybrid, thus it doesn't a HV battery.

As for the bolded statement, the US $ is certainly not been strong vs. the Yen over the long term. See 1 us dollar in yen from january 1, 2001 to today - Wolfram|Alpha. The original Prius had an MSRP of $19,995. Per $19995 2000 dollars - Wolfram|Alpha, that's $26657 in today's dollars. This doesn't take into account the weakening dollar vs. Yen.

How long have Tesla, Nissan and Chevy been selling vehicles w/li-ion batteries? How many vehicles w/li-ion from these automakers have been sold vs.the Prius, since inception? How long is the battery warranty on a Tesla Roadster? How about on the Leaf? Compare this to the 10 year/150K mile HV battery warranty in CA and CARB states that began w/the 04 Prius.

The 1st Priuses (NHW10, JDM only) which had NiMH batteries went on sale in December 1997.

Ok, let's say they gain all that. How much more would the car cost? What's Toyota aiming for w/the Prius c? I ask you again, how many people would decide to buy a competitor's car just because it had li-ion over the Prius c? How many competing hybrids in its price range have li-ion? Has Toyota been having trouble selling any of the Prius members w/NiMH? Which li-ion based cars are outselling Priuses?

 

But those NHW10's are failing now and failing quickly. There were quite a few of these imported into the UK and it is rare to see them still working before 2000 model year. Whether that's a fault with them being almost a prototype model or because 12years is the maximum useful life of a battery, I don't know.

 

I was being facetious towards strongbad hehe.

 

You demand to much and aren't being realistic.

 

Fair enough... From the minimal amount I know about the NHW10, it seems close to a science experiment to me.

Sure, we're also seeing NHW11 and NHW20 battery failures now, but hey, I still ask strongbad how this compares to how long li-ion based cars from mainstream automakers have been on the market and their populations.

 

The NiMh pack in the Prius delivers and accepts 100 amp currents. This is 15 times the battery capacity and it typically lasts 200k to 250k miles unless subject to hot climes.

To safely and reliably handle 100 amp currents with a LiOn battery would require that the battery have at least 5 times the capacity. I for one would not want to pay the additional cost.

JeffD

 

Okay what vehicle and weight are you talking about. The nimh battery and vehicle weight you state can not be correct or the veracity of your statement..................

 

One of the things we have to realize is that for over 12 years Toyota has had no serious competition in the hybrid market. They still don't! They've used the opportunity to slowly improve the Prius without having to take the risks that might lead to faster and more impressive results but also big problems. The goal with the C is a lower priced hybrid that brings in new customers that have been wanting a Prius but couldn't afford or justify the liftback. If other manufacturers ever beat the Prius with a 60 or 70 mpg car for a similar price point, then Toyota will have the experience to quickly top that!

 

I was being sarcastic towards strongbad. Some people must have missed my sarcasm.

 

What's the typical usable lifetime in a hot clime? 150k?

 

Oh I agree - the NHW10's were a test mule for the world market and I believe their battery management isn't as good or as tuned as it is on the NHW11 World Prius gen1. I do think that's the reason why these old ones are failing - if they're not balanced regularly by a seperate machine (very rare outside of Japan) then they go out of balance quickly and then get detroyed.

But to get a working life of 13 or 14 years out of what was almost a prototype isn't bad going and bodes well for the official gen1.

p.s. I do wish I was more electrically minded as there was a 1997 NHW10 for sale here locally at £500 with 12 months certification (MOT), though it did have the dreaded turtle light coming on intermitantly. If I knew what I was doing I'd love to keep that ol' girl on the road - a future classic!